Favorite Documentaries?

[dsheinem]

He's brilliant, but his films are nothing but propaganda.

Like all films, his films make arguments. Dismissing them as merely "propaganda" isn't really a fair critique (I'm a bit shocked you're parroting the typical hyperbole from the anti-Moore crowd). I'd urge folks to watch his films, investigate criticisms and responses to them, and arrive at their own conclusions about the topics he covers.

On a side note, his major arguments across his films are: that most big businesses put profit above public good, that politics are corrupt, that the news media is shitty, and that understanding the connections between these things are important to understanding changes over the past 20 years or so. I really don't think any of that is really very debatable...

[Luke]

He's brilliant, but his films are nothing but propaganda.

Like all films, his films make arguments.


Dismissing them as merely "propaganda" isn't really a fair critique (I'm a bit shocked you're parroting the typical hyperbole from the anti-Moore crowd).

1) No.

2) I never dismissed his films, I called him brilliant, but that his film were propaganda. Maybe the "nothing" was too strong.

And I'm not "parroting" a thing, just speaking my own thoughts that apparently millions agree with. And a lot of people agree with me because Moore edits out anything that doesn't line up with his ideology. That and he stages events.

His films are great, but also narrow minded and brainwashing.

Oh, you should read:



if you haven't already.

I'm not anti-moore or anti-fox news...They just fit the same shoe.

[BogusMeatFactory]

So what argument is Jiro Dreams of Sushi trying to make? What about Murderball? Man on Wire? These films aren't trying to convince you of something, they are just telling a story, a story about people. Sure it may not be the whole picture, but it isn't trying to sway your opinion.

[Luke]

So what argument is Jiro Dreams of Sushi trying to make?

I'm guessing according to Dish, "Jiro Actually dreams of Sushi, and you better goddamn believe it! Here's the proof from edited brainwaves and interviews with people in community college hoping to be sleep pathologists that HE DOES DREAM OF SUSHI!".

[dsheinem]

So what argument is Jiro Dreams of Sushi trying to make? What about Murderball? Man on Wire? These films aren't trying to convince you of something, they are just telling a story, a story about people. Sure it may not be the whole picture, but it isn't trying to sway your opinion.

By choosing to emphasize and de-emphasize particular things that were captured in filming, by choosing to connect those chosen images to particular sounds, camera angles, and other tropes of film/storytelling, they are absolutely crafting a particular image (and not another) of the topic they chose to film. That's an argument.

In two of the films you mentioned (I haven't seen Murderball), the central arguments are about the relative risks/rewards for certain choices the featured men and their families made. In Jiro, for example, there's an argument that routine is beautiful, that it leads to expertise and then success, etc. There are also arguments about over-fishing presented, arguments about changes in Japanese family and business life (some positive, some negative), and arguments about age. These aren't "objective reports" they are subjective claims the film makers weigh in on (with various levels of emphasis and exposition) through the choices they make about what to put on the screen and how.

[BogusMeatFactory]

So what argument is Jiro Dreams of Sushi trying to make? What about Murderball? Man on Wire? These films aren't trying to convince you of something, they are just telling a story, a story about people. Sure it may not be the whole picture, but it isn't trying to sway your opinion.

By choosing to emphasize and de-emphasize particular things that were captured in filming, by choosing to connect those chosen images to particular sounds, camera angles, and other tropes of film/storytelling, they are absolutely crafting a particular image (and not another) of the topic they chose to film. That's an argument.

In two of the films you mentioned (I haven't seen Murderball), the central arguments are about the relative risks/rewards for certain choices the featured men and their families made. In Jiro, for example, there's an argument that routine is beautiful, that it leads to expertise and then success, etc. There are also arguments about over-fishing presented, arguments about changes in Japanese family and business life (some positive, some negative), and arguments about age. These aren't "objective reports" they are subjective claims the film makers weigh in on (with various levels of emphasis and exposition) through the choices they make about what to put on the screen and how.

Life is not about arguments, it is about choices. I do not see these films as an argument to persuade a person. Sure other films, like Moore's work or other films like Black Fish, Food Inc. etc. take an argumentative stance, which is fine for that type of documentary. At no point in time do I feel that there is an argument being made in films like Jiro Dreams of Sushi. If they talk of it, they are not arguing about it. Do we get bombarded with numbers, with expert testimonies about the over-fishing in Japan? There is no argument being made because they are not trying to back that argument up. A comment in passing, less than five minutes of talk about it in a conversation does not make it an argument.

The world is not a world of just arguments and people make decisions to portray things in different lights no matter what they do, be it a documentary, writing a book or programming a video game; there is always a level of subjectivity. You can perceive that they are arguing for something, but I see it as an interpretation. I am not trying to be convinced of anything in that film. I'm just watching.

[dsheinem]

Just because a film doesn't take an argumentative "tone " or directly present its ideas as claim/support doesn't mean it can't persuade your thinking. I'd argue that often the media which most shapes our worldview is that which we just engage "for fun" because our critical "guard" is down.

[TSTR]

It's a fact that it's impossible to achieve objectivity in the documentary medium, regardless of how much effort is put toward achieving such. Viewers would do well to keep that in mind. This is like basic anthropology stuff here.

[Luke]

It's a fact that it's impossible to achieve objectivity in the documentary medium...

False.

That's like NOVA telling you to believe in the big bang. It's "Here's what we think we might know, and here is why" not "Believe this shit or you are a fucking stupid head who hates intelligence, and by intelligence I mean whatever I say is the truth"

There are no objections.

Documentaries, even BLACKFISH, show the pros and cons.

[TSTR]

It's a fact that it's impossible to achieve objectivity in the documentary medium...

False.

That's like NOVA telling you to believe in the big bang. It's "Here's what we think we might know, and here is why" not "Believe this shit or you are a fucking stupid head who hates intelligence, and by intelligence I mean whatever I say is the truth"

There are no objections.

Documentaries, even BLACKFISH, show the pros and cons.

As dr. dsh mentioned, it's not like an idea has to be put forth in such an auspicious manner. Scientific programs like NOVA are a trickier bunch to deal with. Unless the specific program is displaying how proven, demonstrable laws work, such as universal gravitation or thermodynamics, then they are presenting scientific consensus—a subjective idea itself.

I've never seen Blackfish, so I can't speak to that.

By choosing to emphasize and de-emphasize particular things that were captured in filming, by choosing to connect those chosen images to particular sounds, camera angles, and other tropes of film/storytelling, they are absolutely crafting a particular image (and not another) of the topic they chose to film. That's an argument.

This is why no documentary can be objective. Whether these choices are conscious or not, an argument (or viewpoint, for the sake of calling it something less blantant) results.