Random Thoughts Thread

[Luke]

Was Bruce Lee full of shit and just a well choreographed actor who could sell tons of movies?

Youtube certainly doesn't provide an answer (so far in my search).

Footage of him actually fighting someone would be appreciated.

Not training. Not showing gimmicks. Actually fighting against another man.

[Ack]

Was Bruce Lee full of shit and just a well choreographed actor who could sell tons of movies?

Youtube certainly doesn't provide an answer (so far in my search).

Footage of him actually fighting someone would be appreciated.

Not training. Not showing gimmicks. Actually fighting against another man.

This is supposedly a video of Bruce Lee in a tournament. Lee is supposed to be the guy with white stripes forming an X on his back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3q381ae0jI

[Luke]

This is supposedly a video of Bruce Lee in a tournament. Lee is supposed to be the guy with white stripes forming an X on his back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3q381ae0jI

Super low quality, super low hit count...Suspect.

Why are there no videos clearly showing Bruce Lee fighting an actual opponent? On film, Tommy C would kick his tail without breaking a sweat.

Most modern Bruce Lee videos are all nonsense, so I negate those too. So my basic question is, outside of Hollywood bullshit, did Bruce Lee ever prove himself as a martial artist? I don't see it, at all.

[RCBH928]

I thought those martial arts guys never fight because its against their ethics or something like that so it makes sense that there are no real fight sequences for Bruce Lee. Any way his physique is not of a guy who is acting like he is a martial artist .

In addition, he was dead before the invention of the VHS so I am guessing that any video of him was supposed to be on film. I am going to guess not many film cameras were around back then and even if they existed not many knew how to use them. So I am not surprised not find much footage about him.

I am surprised he is an American born, I thought he was Chinese and then moved to America after he became famous.

[Jmustang1968]

This is supposedly a video of Bruce Lee in a tournament. Lee is supposed to be the guy with white stripes forming an X on his back.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n3q381ae0jI

Super low quality, super low hit count...Suspect.

Why are there no videos clearly showing Bruce Lee fighting an actual opponent? On film, Tommy C would kick his tail without breaking a sweat.

Most modern Bruce Lee videos are all nonsense, so I negate those too. So my basic question is, outside of Hollywood bullshit, did Bruce Lee ever prove himself as a martial artist? I don't see it, at all.

Well he had his own martial arts schools and was an instructor. This was before Hollywood discovered him.

[Luke]

Well he had his own martial arts schools and was an instructor. This was before Hollywood discovered him.

Anyone can open a martial arts school, especially when your parents are rich and have the coin to spend.

I just wonder if I believed nothing but hype. Could the guy have lasted a minute in a boxing ring, the kumatae, or even in MMA? He's hailed as a legend and one of the greatest martial artists of all time...but where's the proof? In movies? That's make believe.

[SirGawain]

Well he had his own martial arts schools and was an instructor. This was before Hollywood discovered him.

Anyone can open a martial arts school, especially when your parents are rich and have the coin to spend.

I just wonder if I believed nothing but hype. Could the guy have lasted a minute in a boxing ring, the kumatae, or even in MMA? He's hailed as a legend and one of the greatest martial artists of all time...but where's the proof? In movies? That's make believe.

Agreed. It isn't like saying Ali was the greatest boxer. I could look up proof and records and all that jazz and make an argument. I think it is a little harder to find martial art tournament records from the 50's and 60's. Dana White said he was the Godfather of MMA because of his technique and style philosophy, but not necessarily fighting prowess. Then there are the stories of his escapades but most don't have any real validation. There is no doubt that he was in fantastic physical shape and a draw in Hollywood, but the greatest martial artist ever is too liquid of a thing to put on him.

[Ack]

Well he had his own martial arts schools and was an instructor. This was before Hollywood discovered him.

Anyone can open a martial arts school, especially when your parents are rich and have the coin to spend.

I just wonder if I believed nothing but hype. Could the guy have lasted a minute in a boxing ring, the kumatae, or even in MMA? He's hailed as a legend and one of the greatest martial artists of all time...but where's the proof? In movies? That's make believe.

Admittedly the vast majority of claims of his fighting prowess come from Lee's students, particularly Skip Ellsworth(claims he fought alongside Lee against opponents at places like a pool hall in Montana and outside the Kokusai movie theater in Seattle), Doug Palmer(claim he saw Bruce Lee bust a man's knee in Hong Kong), Ronald Kealoha(claims Lee KOed and hospitalized an opponent in a boxing ring at the Seattle National Guard Armory), Jesse Glover and Ed Hart(referreed a fight between Lee and a Japanese challenger at a YMCA. Supposedly Lee knocked his opponent into the wall and then kicked him in the face as he slumped over), Dan Inosanto(claimed he saw Lee fight a trucker in a road rage incident), Herb Jackson(Lee told him a man had climbed his fence, and Lee kicked his ass for trespassing), and finally Stirling Silliphant and singer Vic Damone(Lee supposedly kicked the cigarette out of the mouth of one of Damone's bodyguards, which is what led Vic to train under Lee for a year).

As for non-students, actor Bob Wall claims he saw Lee get called out by an extra on the set of Enter the Dragon. Apparently Lee and the guy squared up, and Lee promptly kicked him in the face and knocked out several teeth. Assistant Director Chaplin Chang says he never witnessed any challenges on the sets of Enter the Dragon or Way of the Dragon but heard from others working on the films that they had occurred.

Wall also had this to say in an interview about filming Enter the Dragon:

The broken-bottle scene was made dangerous because we used real bottles. Each time you broke them, they broke differently, and the edges were obviously very sharp. However, we did the scene several times perfectly, except that I had to fall into the glass each time. Then there was a mistiming on the seventh or so shot, and Bruce was cut. Bruce’s only instructions to me were to come at him as fast as I could and aim for his right pectoral [muscle]. He then kicked me with a right-leg-forward crescent kick, which hit me between my wrist and elbow. When the accident that cut Bruce’s hand occurred, the kick landed on my arm above the elbow, so the bottle didn’t move, and as Bruce spun around, he jammed his right hand into the bottle. If Clouse had given us [breakaway] bottles, there would have been no problem. But Bruce was into reality-based filmmaking — including the live snake he snatched, which bit him once during the several takes. Bruce had the talent, guts and speed, and he was fearless. That’s why [Bruce Lee movies] stand the test of time.

And finally there is the fight between Lee and Wong Jack Man, which was witnessed by a few people such as Lee's wife, a family friend, and T'ai chi ch'uan teacher William Chen. Accounts differ between Lee and Wong as to who was the victor and how, and Chen's account mirrors elements of both but argued that it was a tie. Most importantly, all accounts remarked on Lee as an aggressive attacker, whom Wong believed fully intended to kill or maim him, while Wong went on the defensive immediately. This was also toward the tail end of Lee's Wing Chun usage, and Lee later credited the fight as the reason he stopped using Wing Chun so much and began seeking alternate methods of training and fighting. Wong also began developing new techniques and changed his focus towards softer styles of fighting.

[Luke]

^Have read about all of those incidents.

Besides the fight with Wong (which is always different depending on who tells the story) the other incidents are not without suspicion. Of course, most of Lee's students went on to own their own practice, as "I studied under Bruce Lee" means you'll rake in the students. Plus, who doesn't want to say "This one time I saw Bruce Lee...".

All I'm asking is for a piece of evidence that Lee was a martial arts master. Or even good at it off camera.

And I say this with all kidding aside, Steven Seagal is pretty amazing when it comes to martial arts. I'd love to see Bruce Lee in something similar where he trains someone.

[Ack]

^Have read about all of those incidents.

Besides the fight with Wong (which is always different depending on who tells the story) the other incidents are not without suspicion. Of course, most of Lee's students went on to own their own practice, as "I studied under Bruce Lee" means you'll rake in the students. Plus, who doesn't want to say "This one time I saw Bruce Lee...".

All I'm asking is for a piece of evidence that Lee was a martial arts master. Or even good at it off camera.

And I say this with all kidding aside, Steven Seagal is pretty amazing when it comes to martial arts. I'd love to see Bruce Lee in something similar where he trains someone.

No, I understand and agree. The vast majority of any firm evidence regarding Lee's prowess is circumstantial at best and comes from the testimony of individuals who are hardly unbiased. The Wong account is really the closest thing we have to an actual documentation of how well Lee could really fight.

That said, regardless of whether any of these anecdotes are actually true, Lee should be credited for being one of the first martial arts instructors to open his school to students of a variety of ethnicities and helping to end the generally racist practice of only teaching students of the same nationality and ethnicity as the instructor. As a person of mixed race, he reportedly saw and received the same treatment while training under Ip Man, as full-blooded Chinese refused to train with him. This certainly seemed to have helped shape his teaching philosophy, and as a result, he opened the practice to a variety of ethnicities and individuals from around the world.