What shmup are you playing now?

[foxhound1022]

It all depends on your tastes.

Yes, Cave makes good games, but there are quite a few shmups that top my list that aren't Cave.

[ExedExes]

Damn. Is Cave really that highly regarded? I feel way out of the loop, I mostly like to play stuff like R-Type, Gradius, Darius, etc...

To the community as a whole, yes I'm afraid.

But you're all right. In good company with me.

[dunpeal2064]

Cave actually cares about how their games feel at all levels of play, including high-end competitive scoring, which is what I believe gets them the most votes (among many other things, like excellent design, fantastic music, lolis, etc).

R-Type and Gradius are good examples. As a beginner, it is immediately obvious that you will need a plan for this game. There is no room for error, no safe bomb. This may appeal to some, but will likely turn off others. Cave games, on the other hand, allow for a high level of error and reflex dodging (To an extent, of course, which is why a lot of casual players that like Cave can still never make it past stage 3 in their games). You can play Mushihimesama Futari for the first time ever and make it to the stage 2 boss.

Now, lets look at the same games from a competitive perspective. R-Type, once you have cleared, boils down to checkpoint milking. You kill yourself and play the most rewarding (score-wise) section of the game over and over. Gradius loops infinitely, and stops getting harder after loop 3, so this one ends up being "how long can you play a game you have proven you can beat?" Cave games, where they are laxed for survival, are built specifically with this level of play in mind. Mastering a Cave scoring system is very complex and requires a very high level of play, route memorization, and precision. Where you are usually pushing an older game beyond the scope of the developer when playing an older shooter for survival, you are just scratching the surface of what Cave has designed with this level of play.

So, whether you are new to the genre and want something accessible, or are a masochist looking for the toughest shmup challenge there is, Cave suits that need.

Thats not to say Cave is for everyone, but I think it makes sense as to why they would be so poplar in a forum dedicated to the genre. If there was a vote like this for rhythm games, you would probably see a lot of Beatmania games in the Top 25 too, even though casual players would prefer Guitar Hero, a game not well suited for those that are unhealthily obsessed with the genre.

.... aaand, this can all be taken with a grain of salt, as I am obviously biased towards Cave. What I find more shocking is the lack of Touhou games in the Top 25.

[ExedExes]

^^ Very well said. I'm slowly getting into stuff from Cave, but I still remain attached to my classics

[Violent By Design]

Cave actually cares about how their games feel at all levels of play, including high-end competitive scoring, which is what I believe gets them the most votes (among many other things, like excellent design, fantastic music, lolis, etc).

R-Type and Gradius are good examples. As a beginner, it is immediately obvious that you will need a plan for this game. There is no room for error, no safe bomb. This may appeal to some, but will likely turn off others. Cave games, on the other hand, allow for a high level of error and reflex dodging (To an extent, of course, which is why a lot of casual players that like Cave can still never make it past stage 3 in their games). You can play Mushihimesama Futari for the first time ever and make it to the stage 2 boss.

Now, lets look at the same games from a competitive perspective. R-Type, once you have cleared, boils down to checkpoint milking. You kill yourself and play the most rewarding (score-wise) section of the game over and over. Gradius loops infinitely, and stops getting harder after loop 3, so this one ends up being "how long can you play a game you have proven you can beat?" Cave games, where they are laxed for survival, are built specifically with this level of play in mind. Mastering a Cave scoring system is very complex and requires a very high level of play, route memorization, and precision. Where you are usually pushing an older game beyond the scope of the developer when playing an older shooter for survival, you are just scratching the surface of what Cave has designed with this level of play.

So, whether you are new to the genre and want something accessible, or are a masochist looking for the toughest shmup challenge there is, Cave suits that need.

Thats not to say Cave is for everyone, but I think it makes sense as to why they would be so poplar in a forum dedicated to the genre. If there was a vote like this for rhythm games, you would probably see a lot of Beatmania games in the Top 25 too, even though casual players would prefer Guitar Hero, a game not well suited for those that are unhealthily obsessed with the genre.

.... aaand, this can all be taken with a grain of salt, as I am obviously biased towards Cave. What I find more shocking is the lack of Touhou games in the Top 25.

That's kinda how I look at it as well. Games like R-Type comes down to basically memorizing every new challenge you see. R-Type is kinda like Contra in those regards, it's more about just remembering what is coming at you and attacking the game systematically, even at low levels.

Cave games generally offer freedom, and as you said you can get a lot further on just reflexes. In some ways Cave games offer legitimate playmaking, now of course if we're talking really competitive action, then there is going to be method to the madness like any game, but generally speaking I think Cave games are very accessible.

[dunpeal2064]

That's kinda how I look at it as well. Games like R-Type comes down to basically memorizing every new challenge you see. R-Type is kinda like Contra in those regards, it's more about just remembering what is coming at you and attacking the game systematically, even at low levels.

Cave games generally offer freedom, and as you said you can get a lot further on just reflexes. In some ways Cave games offer legitimate playmaking, now of course if we're talking really competitive action, then there is going to be method to the madness like any game, but generally speaking I think Cave games are very accessible.

I agree, and great post.

The great thing about Cave shooters is that, even at the highest level of play, they offer freedom, although not in the traditional sense. The games are so hard to play perfectly due to the layers of complexity in their scoring systems, that a player will almost always know how to score more efficiently then they currently are scoring.

Even when you know every move to make in the game to get the optimal score, you have to adjust the risk/reward to your level, and to meet your current goal. With so many scoring layers, you can really build a unique run at just the level of risk/reward you are looking for. Then, as you meet your goals, you can adjust your runs, choosing where you want to take a more difficult route, to net more points.

Of course, there are non-Cave shmups that have achieved this as well, and there are Cave shmups that offer very little freedom, but I think Cave has put out the largest amount of high-quality scoring games overall (Maybe ZUN has close to as many, I'm not too familiar with Touhou scoring though).

^^ Very well said. I'm slowly getting into stuff from Cave, but I still remain attached to my classics

I do still enjoy the classics. I'll play a Taito or NMK shmup any day.

They are very different things to me, though. Even when I really get into an older shooter, I'll grind into it for about 2 weeks, aiming for a clear. With Cave (and other score-based, usually bullet hell shooters), I can play for months, even years, and still feel like there is so much I've yet to see or do in the game.

[graffix_13]

Cave actually cares about how their games feel at all levels of play, including high-end competitive scoring, which is what I believe gets them the most votes (among many other things, like excellent design, fantastic music, lolis, etc).

R-Type and Gradius are good examples. As a beginner, it is immediately obvious that you will need a plan for this game. There is no room for error, no safe bomb. This may appeal to some, but will likely turn off others. Cave games, on the other hand, allow for a high level of error and reflex dodging (To an extent, of course, which is why a lot of casual players that like Cave can still never make it past stage 3 in their games). You can play Mushihimesama Futari for the first time ever and make it to the stage 2 boss.

Now, lets look at the same games from a competitive perspective. R-Type, once you have cleared, boils down to checkpoint milking. You kill yourself and play the most rewarding (score-wise) section of the game over and over. Gradius loops infinitely, and stops getting harder after loop 3, so this one ends up being "how long can you play a game you have proven you can beat?" Cave games, where they are laxed for survival, are built specifically with this level of play in mind. Mastering a Cave scoring system is very complex and requires a very high level of play, route memorization, and precision. Where you are usually pushing an older game beyond the scope of the developer when playing an older shooter for survival, you are just scratching the surface of what Cave has designed with this level of play.

So, whether you are new to the genre and want something accessible, or are a masochist looking for the toughest shmup challenge there is, Cave suits that need.

Thats not to say Cave is for everyone, but I think it makes sense as to why they would be so poplar in a forum dedicated to the genre. If there was a vote like this for rhythm games, you would probably see a lot of Beatmania games in the Top 25 too, even though casual players would prefer Guitar Hero, a game not well suited for those that are unhealthily obsessed with the genre.

.... aaand, this can all be taken with a grain of salt, as I am obviously biased towards Cave. What I find more shocking is the lack of Touhou games in the Top 25.

Good post and I agree with my (albeit) brief experience with the genre.

Going from Gradius to Ketsui is night and day. I've been playing the Gradius Collection for the last 2 weeks on my Vita and just got Ketsui (a CAVE game) this weekend.

Ketsui is easier to pick up and start playing IMO, BUT waaaay harder to master. The Gradius games are fun, but...I dunno. It's more annoying crashing into the ceilings/floors in Gradius than it is getting cut to ribbons in a wall of bullets on Ketsui.

[graffix_13]

Signed up my Japanese PSN account last night. Now just awaiting my japanese psn card and I can start buying! So far I planned on getting:

- DoDonPachi
- Einhander
- Zanac X Zanac
- Thunderforce V
- R-Type Dimensions (maybe)

Any other good games not available on the US psn store?

[pierrot]

If you like cutesy horis with some decent depth, and great visuals:

Harmful Park
Cotton 100%


These are available in the US store too, but R-types and R-type Delta are really good, as well.

[DocHauser]

Been pretty busy this week, so haven't had a chance to improve my RayForce score. I did have a few runs on a new doujin game called LaserReimu, which is basically a Cave/Touhou mash-up.



Stage 2 has DFK laser wheels, you'll be pleased to hear.