Which is better s video modded genesis or 32x?

[samsonlonghair]

I admit I have considered the SCART route before. I always stop myself when I consider the price of the SCART to YUV convertor.

[dogman91]

I admit I have considered the SCART route before. I always stop myself when I consider the price of the SCART to YUV convertor.

50 bananas on eBay. A million zillion times worth IMO, especially since some consoles don't support s-video without modding; this just gets all consoles done and over with, plus it looks better.

[Ziggy]

Of course it all depends on the specific console and specific TV you're using, but I find that YPbPr doesn't really look a whole lot better than S-Video on these retro consoles. Certainly not enough for me to worry a whole lot about or spend too much on.

It's not even hard to understand, you just have to know a little about these video signals. YPbPr is not RGB. It's a step above S-Video, but a small one. The noticeable visual improvement from S-Video to YPbPr is basically nothing compared to the improvement from composite to S-Video. Most people wouldn't even notice much at all, if anything at all. The YPbPr signal has the same Y (Luma) signal that S-Video has. But while S-Video has a single (Chroma) color signal, component has Pb and Pr, two color signals. And do you know what the Pb and Pr actually are? They're blue and red without green. Apparently green is the most used color, so it's taken out. When Pb and Pr hit the TV, the TV recreates the green back into the picture. That's why DVD video is stored using this method, and that's why YPbPr isn't as good as RGB, and that's why YPbPr is not that big of a step over S-Video.

An RGB-YPbPr converter is a whole other can of worms. You could get one for not too much money, but that doesn't mean you're getting a good one. I would just stick with S-Video. I can tell you this from my own personal findings. From spending countless hours trying to perfect the YPbPr signal from a SNES, only to realize that S-Video is just as good. Spending the time and money adding RGB output to my N64 so I could convert it to YPbPr. You have to look really, REALLY hard to find any difference at all between YPbPr and S-Video. With my N64, I couldn't even see any difference.

edit: I actually have some S-Video versus RGB-YPbPr pics of my N64 here: http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopi ... 50#p551550

On the other hand, if you had a TV or monitor that had actual RGB inputs, then I'd say yes definitely go for RGB. Otherwise, as AQ said, don't fall down the rabbit hole.

[samsonlonghair]

I see what you mean about YPbPr being only one step above s-video. Unfortunately, my TV set has no S-video input. I have an lcd computer monitor with S-video, but the s-video signal looks really bad (worse than composite) on this display. My TV has component inputs, but not true RGB inputs. I used to have a CRT computer monitor with real RGB inputs (via BNC connector no less), but that was years ago.

It seems intentionally misleading that the colors chosen for YPbPr component are red, green, and blue connectors. Until I researched the issue a few years ago, I didn't realize that YPbPr was a different type of signal separation from RGB.

[Ziggy]

Yeah, newer TVs are lacking S-Video. That's why I started to fall down the rabbit hole myself. There ARE transcoders that'll convert S-Video to YPbPr or even HDMI. Yes, yes, you wont get an increase in quality. Just the ability to use S-Video on a TV lacking that input. That's what I've been doing on my LCD.

[AppleQueso]

In ideal conditions, transcoding RGB to Component should be lossless as far as I know.

I personally do notice a difference between say, using s-video on a Ps2 and using component on it, and that's not even taking advantage of 480p. It's not as dramatic a jump as seeing s-video for the first time, sure, but there's definitely a difference. Of course, whether you notice that (or even care) can depend on a lot of stuff and your setup.

I do want to mention though, the N64 is a bit of a bad metric for that sort of thing. The system doesn't exactly have spectacular video output not matter what you do to it.

I eventually ended up just nabbing an XRGB-mini, but I understand that it's not really a practical recommendation.

[Ziggy]

I personally do notice a difference between say, using s-video on a Ps2 and using component on it, and that's not even taking advantage of 480p. It's not as dramatic a jump as seeing s-video for the first time, sure, but there's definitely a difference. Of course, whether you notice that (or even care) can depend on a lot of stuff and your setup.

I'm not disagreeing. I did say "these old consoles" (at least I'm pretty sure I did) referring to stuff like Genesis, SNES, and other consoles around that time. I use component cables with my PS2 and love it. Maybe it makes more of a difference with 480 versus the 240 resolution. I just notice much less of a difference between S-Video and component on the older consoles than I do with other things such as the PS2 or a DVD player. And also, yeah, I said it will also depend on your particular TV and whatever else you're using (like a cheap RGB-YPbPr transcoder versus a more expensive one).

In ideal conditions, transcoding RGB to Component should be lossless as far as I know.

Well like I said, YPbPr has the red and blue color channels minus all of the green. When the signal hits the TV, the TV recreates the green for you. So if your TV perfectly recreates all the green, then I guess it would be lossless and equivalent to RGB. But as we know, a lot of TVs suck. And you know what people say NTSC stands for? Not The Same Color. I've seen forum posts comparing laserdisc to DVD, and yeah, while the laserdisc is blurry as fuck compared to the DVD, the greens are MUCH different. In such a comparison, you'll usually find something with bright vivid colors (the Lion King seems to be used most often). The greens are just so much more vivid, and look really dull on DVD when you compare the two side by side. But now we're making our way down the rabbit hole.

I do want to mention though, the N64 is a bit of a bad metric for that sort of thing. The system doesn't exactly have spectacular video output not matter what you do to it.

I've also experienced component video with the SNES in two different situations. One, perhaps not the best example, was tapping the component signal that the video encoders had in earlier SNES revisions. The other was RGB output from another SNES, transcoded into component. From what I've seen, it wasn't worth the effort I put into it.

I eventually ended up just nabbing an XRGB-mini, but I understand that it's not really a practical recommendation.

Well the XRGB is another story because of the upscaling and HDMI output. The screenshots I've seen of retro gaming with them looks amazing. I'd love to get one or something similar, but yeah, they're pretty expensive.

[dogman91]

And also, yeah, I said it will also depend on your particular TV and whatever else you're using (like a cheap RGB-YPbPr transcoder versus a more expensive one).

Do you have a particular 'expensive' RGB to component transcoder you can recommend, that actually provides a noticeable "upgrade" to the ones sold on eBay (more accurate/lossless to the original RGB signal)? I heard the Kramer FC14 is good. Also preferably something that doesn't have extra unnecessary functionality that drives up the cost.

In ideal conditions, transcoding RGB to Component should be lossless as far as I know.

Well like I said, YPbPr has the red and blue color channels minus all of the green. When the signal hits the TV, the TV recreates the green for you. So if your TV perfectly recreates all the green, then I guess it would be lossless and equivalent to RGB. But as we know, a lot of TVs suck.

How do you think the CRT Sony WEGA's stack up with this? FV series in particular (I have a KV-36FV300, manufactured 2002).

Would love to get as close as possible to what Europeans have with their native inputs.

[Ziggy]

Do you have a particular 'expensive' RGB to component transcoder you can recommend, that actually provides a noticeable "upgrade" to the ones sold on eBay (more accurate/lossless to the original RGB signal)?

No, not really. When you're talking about the "eBay" one, I assume you mean this:

All in all, it doesn't sound like a bad transcoder. The worst part about it is that you might have to open it up and adjust the levels, but that's not even that big of a deal considering it's only $50. I was gonna pick one up, actually.

But anything past this device, that is NOT the XRGB, starts to get into the realm of professional and videophile territory, and the price jumps up to several hundred dollars and beyond.

I found a little trick to get pro video equipment for cheap. You know those recycle centers and such? Most of them sell on eBay. I was able to score a pro grade bi-direction transcoder for like $30 shipped. The unit was something like $1200 brand new. I imagine it was used in a TV studio or editing room or some such thing. It can input S-Video, RGB, and YPbPr. It can output any of those signals as composite, S-Video, RGB or YPbPr.

The catch with the this is pro grade equipment like that is gonna be rack mountable, and thus huge compared to things you're used to stacking on your AV shelf below your TV. Mine has a fan, which I'm sure is common on such a unit, and it's not as quiet as I'd like it. Also, it's not gonna have a SCART input because we don't have SCART here in the USA. It's gonna have BNC in/outputs. So you're gonna have to mod a cable or the console or whatever. I use RCA-BNC adapters on mine. When I added RGB to my N64, I just added RCA outputs for it. I did the same for a SNES when I tried that out. You're also gonna have to pay attention to the difference between JPN and PAL SCART, because they're not the same.

How do you think the CRT Sony WEGA's stack up with this? FV series in particular (I have a KV-36FV300, manufactured 2002).

Would love to get as close as possible to what Europeans have with their native inputs.

Yeah, I have an FS120. Honestly, I don't know. I trust it's as good as it's gonna get since the Wegas are suppose to be top of the line. Personally, I don't care. I use S-Video for all my retro consoles (minus the NES and FC) on that TV and I'm fine with it. I only worry about component on my HDTV, and that's because it doesn't have any S-Video inputs.

If you want true RGB, then get an RGB monitor (again, professional equipment) like a Sony PVM or something similar and use a 2.1 desktop speaker system for sound. The trade off is you wont be able to find one with a screen as large as your 36" Wega. And you'll deal with the same stuff as above for the transcoder (BNC inputs and whatnot). But you'll have true RGB.

If you ask my opinion, just draw the line some where and don't fall down the rabbit hole. Get to the point where you can say "looks good enough" and just enjoy gaming. Personally, I wouldn't mind eventually getting an XRGB for my HDTV, especially if I ever have to get rid of my Wega. But for now, I'm perfectly fine using S-Video on the Wega. It looks great, and I don't care if it could look a smidge better. From what I've found, the hassle of using component with these old consoles isn't worth the effort.

[theclaw]

If you don't want to sink money into experimenting... Choose either XRGB, or a YPbPr direct-view 4:3 non-480p CRT, and be done with it.

The cost of an RGB to component box is not at all bad when viewed in context. A one time expense for any compatible RGB console is endlessly more tolerable than getting multiple component mods done, postage alone both ways on heavier consoles is at least $20.