Save-States; the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

[hashiriya1]

This is why I choose console versions if available. I hope the 360 version of Muchi is accepted this month.

[hashiriya1]

According some people consider that even just watching replays of other players is cheating!

Guilty as charged.


It's so hard to emulate the best of the best. I use replays to learn more about scoring.

[Ivo]

I'm trying not to be disrespectful here, but anyone claiming that either watching replays or practicing using save states (or any other helps, like stage select) is cheating has a really strange point of view on things. I'm baffled.

I'm actually a bit irritated as well because I'm implicitly being labeled as a cheater, which I would say that in itself is disrespectful from the other side of this particular argument.
And this just because I do things in a smarter / better way when *TRAINING*, given the goal of raising my high score during an uninterrupted scoring session which is then done in a completely even and fair playing field.

Do you also think athletes are cheating if they train in any other way than doing the actual sport they compete in (if so, don't you think that is a bit ludicrous)? Should 100 m runners ONLY practice by doing 100 m runs? What about marathon runners - is it cheating if they don't try to complete a marathon each time they practice? Can they only train on the same track they will use in the real competition (which is actually impossible but never mind) otherwise they are cheating? Using thread-mills is cheating?

Should football players or other athletes not use a gym to develop specific muscles, is that also cheating (gyms are pretty much the definition of tool assisted training to isolate specific parts of the body to develop, fairly similar to using save states to isolate training on specific hard parts)?

I think pretty much ALL professional athletes get coached by more experienced people, and will look at how other athletes do stuff (often in videos even), which I would say is pretty much "watching replays". Is that cheating?

Pretty much ALL professional athletes focus on individual exercises for stuff they have particularly difficulty with - similar to using save states to access difficult sections / bosses. For example in any of these performance sports where you get scores (gymnastics, ice skating, diving, whatever) you would be pretty stupid to train always in a specific sequence including the easier moves. Of COURSE during training they focus on the hardest ones that they will use in their real performance. Is that cheating?

So I guess by extension, some of you on this thread think all professional athletes are cheating... Or hopefully you will just realize with this type of comparison what kind of reasoning you are making and perhaps change your mind.

[DocHauser]

I really don't participate in the score threads, but I think that if you are using save states to practice then maybe you really don't enjoy games enough to PLAY THEM.

Well, that's certainly...an opinion.

For what it's worth, I enjoy the games just fine. I very rarely use save states myself; it was only after being a member on Shmups Forum for a while and seeing how all the top teams on STGT talked about practising and improving their performance that I began to see the benefit in using them to become better faster.

I don't think I've ever used save states for most of my favourite shmups, i.e. Cave, Raizing, Psikyo, Raiden Fighters games, etc. I've only used them for certain old-school shmups that require a lot of memorization or safe-spot learning, e.g. R-Types, Image Fight, Eco Fighters...

Come to think of it, my main use of save states is for the character-select screen in Raizing or Raiden Fighters games, so that I don't have to input the code for secret characters every time I start up the game!

[dunpeal2064]

Oh my.

, but I don't even think you should use save states to practice. It is still cheating. If you can't make it to that stage to learn it then just keep playing.

You are wrong. It isn't cheating. I can sit down beside you and play a run of the game under the same rules, and I'll be better because I've practiced efficiently. How is learning cheating?

I can make it to Stage 2-4 in Dodonpachi... and it takes 35 minutes to get there in an actual run. So, to follow some arbitrary rule that doesn't exist, I should lose 35 minutes of my time for every few minutes I want to spend practicing that stage? Ridiculous.

I really don't participate in the score threads, but I think that if you are using save states to practice then maybe you really don't enjoy games enough to PLAY THEM.

What the fuck? Now you are telling me I don't enjoy the games enough to play them because I spend hours practicing the game just to be able to play it better?

Does someone not enjoy football simply because they spend time off the field studying, practicing, looking over other teams strategy? Does someone not love Street Fighter because they sit at home practicing their combo chains when they don't have someone to fight against?

No, the people that efficiently practice a game to the point of nearing mastery at it love the game far more than someone who will pop in a few credits, and walk away having made little-to-no progress.

Hah, instead of rushing to the reply button I should have just wrote "+1 Ivo"

[mjmjr25]

Save-states are a personal preference.

Let's not lose sight of the point of this thread - to ensure everyone knows it is not legitimate to submit a run where any type of save state was used. Any submitted run must be started from the beginning of stage 1 and through to your death.

I'd also like to run with Ivo's analogy. Since we are olympic athletes and marathon runners - I think the "pause" button is outlawed in any submitted run. A 100-yd dash runner can't pause at 40 yds and catch his breath, then continue on and hope to have a good run - so neither should we.

This reminds me of a true story. I was playing Deathsmiles last January and one of the kids had apparently locked the door while my wife was out grocery shopping. I'm mid run, a good run, when she starts pounding on the door, freezing, holding bags of groceries. I'm half yelling up to one of the kids to open the door, but not too loud, because I really can't lose my total concentration on the game - the run is getting better. She starts screaming to open the door - she's freezing. "I can see you playing your game - open the door!" I give one more half-hearted attempt to ask my son to let his mother in - the kids just can't hear me, they're in a their bedroom, door closed, playing together loudly. My wife yells again to come get the door. Finally I yelled, "You're just gonna have to wait a few minutes - stop yelling, you're affecting my run." That was the day she learned shmups was serious bizness.

[noiseredux]

This reminds me of a true story. I was playing Deathsmiles last January and one of the kids had apparently locked the door while my wife was out grocery shopping. I'm mid run, a good run, when she starts pounding on the door, freezing, holding bags of groceries. I'm half yelling up to one of the kids to open the door, but not too loud, because I really can't lose my total concentration on the game - the run is getting better. She starts screaming to open the door - she's freezing. "I can see you playing your game - open the door!" I give one more half-hearted attempt to ask my son to let his mother in - the kids just can't hear me, they're in a their bedroom, door closed, playing together loudly. My wife yells again to come get the door. Finally I yelled, "You're just gonna have to wait a few minutes - stop yelling, you're affecting my run." That was the day she learned shmups was serious bizness.

I always wondered why she doesn't let you sleep in her bed anymore.

[dunpeal2064]

I agree that pausing should not be allowed... but it can't be tracked, outside demanding each participant submit a live replay, which would probably destroy our already small competitive scene.

I think a person knows when they are cheating. Like I said earlier, if I was on your situation Mike, I would have let my girl in (You ballsy sob ). I would then rush back to my game. Is this an advantage? Hell no, I just lost all concentration, I was following a practiced route and I have to jump into it in a spot I've probably never had to jump into before.

I've had to pause in the middle of a Larsa fight before, for maybe 3 seconds, and the run went to shit. I just lost it. I bombed on patterns that I could have dodged at full concentration, and didn't have enough resources to make it through the tougher ones.


...So yeah, if you are running a scoreboard here and you want to refuse scores that have had ANY pause in the game whatsoever, please post it in the OP of your thread. I don't want to submit scores that you would not want in your board.



And yes, the responses to Bryan's post were not what the thread was intended for, but it seemed like an extension worth discussing. If someone calls me a cheater, I would like to go a bit more in-depth with it.

A 100-yd dash runner can't pause at 40 yds and catch his breath, then continue on and hope to have a good run - so neither should we.

He can fall down, and still at least attempt to make the run good, which is what pausing feels like to me. Also, shmups aren't a race, so its a tough analogy to compare against. I do think the pausing thing is interesting though, so I'd love to discuss it more.

[ninjainspandex]

If practicing using save states is cheating then a baseball player having batting practice is cheating, they should have to learn how to bat in real games only.

[CRTGAMER]

I don't mind Save States though it should not be part of the High Score criteria. There very likely will be High Score submissions that use a save state or game cheat assist. Not only in Mame but in console games as well. A high score listing has little meaning, its the posts that throw in a story like they beat a boss or discovered a new level or Easter Egg. Aha another can of worms, would that Easter Egg be considered a cheat since it is in the game already?