Save-States; the Good, the Bad, and the Ugly

[DocHauser]

I now have an .inp of a 1.2 million run. I'll post a link once I can find a filesharing site that doesn't require registration (seriously, when did filesharing become such a hassle?).

Ah, ok, got one. I'll post the link tomorrow, once all the scores are in. Don't want to give any other teams some last-minute tips.

[Ivo]

There are two things that we can discuss here and they are different.
Whether it feels right or wrong to use save states at all, I find this a bit pointless but if you are of a more philosophical inclination you can discuss it. If you are serious about it (and apparently Mike is), you are shooting yourself in the foot by not using every method available to you barring cheating. Practicing using save states is effective, and furthermore it doesn't really miraculously make you better - it mostly just saves time (it is not like it gives you better reflexes).
Maybe reading Playing to Win by David Sirlin would help.

I would also add that non-enforceable rules are usually a bad idea and punish more the ones that keep them than anyone else but that is a bit tangent to this discussion (so I would disregard anyone suggesting a rule that save states can't even be used for practice, there is no way you can know really - same goes for watching videos from pros to learn strategies).

The other issue is what, if anything, can/should be done to enforce that they aren't used in actual scoring runs. I suggest the following: any one can submit scores. Anyone that wishes to really prove he/she did not cheat can optionally submit a video recording (as I did once for Zoop given that I had the top score, was emulating the PS1 version, and my score was larger than those registered elsewhere on the net - although I only sent the video to a user that asked for it).

Then depending on who happens to be keeping track of the score table can decide whether to list "unverified" scores separately (I would advise against that). My opinion is that anyone that doesn't want to bother verifying their score should just get ranked in the same list as those that do bother, and if the ones that do bother want they can feel free to think they are on the top of the ranking and that everyone except them are cheaters.

[GSZX1337]

Save states exist outside of emulation now - especially in compilations of older games. I believe you can save-state in most Sega, Midway, and Taito compilations. Not sure about SNK comps.

Those compilations usually use emulation.

[AppleQueso]

Save states exist outside of emulation now - especially in compilations of older games. I believe you can save-state in most Sega, Midway, and Taito compilations. Not sure about SNK comps.

Those compilations usually use emulation.

Well yeah, but you know what he means.

[dunpeal2064]

Here is how I feel:

Save states can absolutely be used for practice. Trying to level the playing field outside of "the run" is impossible. What if I have to go to an arcade to play Eco Fighters? Should you all have to pay for every credit? What if you have a console port with Stage Select and I am stuck on an actual PCB? What if everyone else has been playing the game for months ahead of time using practice mode, but we then eliminate it during the competition? How would a new player feel about this? There will always be something that changes how people practice the game, and I think that once you start policing it, you've dug a hole that you cannot fill.

As for requiring inps.... will we also require playbacks for console play? People have scores uploaded to leaderboards in the 360 ports that are TAS. You can cheat in any console shmup and still input your initials at the end of the game.

Again, if you are going to dig the hole, you have to go all the way. I refuse to have inputs demanded of me but not other players because of the format they choose to play on.


Edit: For those that are finding a game a "snoozefest", why are you not using Mame? Mike, I know you were using Mame to play Eco, pretty sure Noise just hates the game ("The entire game is a snoozefest"). I don't see the reasoning behind restricting others based on a few personal preferences. Again, what about Stage Select? In most Cave 360 ports you can skip straight to any boss and fight him. Should this be barred?

[ExedExes]

I don't see any problems with anyone's scores here. I believe everyone submits legitimately attainable runs. I know good players like Doc and Hash and others don't mess around with us, they're just that.damn.good. A larger community like the shmups forums may require it only because they have more people than us participating in these events and the fact that there are highly skilled players there. I don't use save states all that often, because I found when I tried them it actually messes with the framerate of many games because it uses some sort of processor timing scheme, and I experience frequent bursts of slowdown and increasing speed immediately after loading them, not to mention that not every game supports them perfectly (although some game's saving abilities may have been improved in the latest builds according to info taken from the latest MAMEINFO.DAT files)

Here it's friendly competition, there's nothing at stake but pride really, and I'll never be good or 1cc these crazy bullet hell games, so I've got nothing to worry about If I ever 1cc something or make it to a final boss or progress really, REALLY far on some game, it's no fluke and I can back it up.

[dunpeal2064]

Let me shorten my last post (rant):

If you don't allow efficient practice, the tournament may as well be called, "Who has played (insert game) the most before the start of this tournament"

If you require recorded replays, require them of everyone, not just Mame players. Anyone can cheat.

[noiseredux]

Edit: For those that are finding a game a "snoozefest", why are you not using Mame?

I am playing it on MAME. Still sucks. Even if I were to savestate to practice, I'd be repeatedly playing the same section of a game I'm not enjoying over and over. And then I'd have to go back and start from the beginning to post a score, so nothing's solved. I just find the game really boring. (I don't remember using the phrase "snoozefest," but sure, that's appropriate, haha).

[DocHauser]

I know good players like Doc and Hash and others don't mess around with us, they're just that.damn.good.

Judging by my position in the current Shmups Solo League, I'm not that good!

Damn Touhou players.

[noiseredux]

If you don't allow efficient practice, the tournament may as well be called, "Who has played (insert game) the most before the start of this tournament"

Dude, I think you misunderstand what he was saying. He's not saying you can't practice via Save States. But he is saying you can't build a perfect run by save-stating from your last good save over and over again until you get a single run that you're happy with.

If someone using MAME does stage 1 with no deaths, saves, dies on stage 2 boss, and then just loads that save and keeps doing that until beating stage 2 boss w/ no deaths, saves, and so on, he could basically 1CC the whole game via savestates even though he's died 50 times. If someone did that and posted a score as "a single credit run"... that's not cool. How is that fair vs. guys on consoles who don't have the option and have to restart a run everytime they lose a credit?

tl;dr: Practice good, cheating bad.