POLL / BE HEARD: December Game for TR

[Violent By Design]

We know what Deus Ex is man, we haven't been living under a rock.

[alienjesus]

Absolutely I can argue that it's a bad game. I throughly believe that. The plot is boring, the gameplay is generic, and the 'open' level design just leads to a selection of bland and half-formed gameplay ideas that never reach the heights it could have had it just focused on one.

Most of the people I've seen vigorously defending the game are already fans. Good for you, I'm glad you enjoyed it, but if you did, why are you pushing so hard for the game in Together Retro? It seems a lot of people on this forum already have an opinion on the game one way or the other. So many of us have already played it, what's the point of playing it again?

You also seem to be including me amongst the negative sentiment in the nominations thread, but you'll actually find I never really got involved in the anti-Deus Ex discussion - I honestly don't mind if it gets voted in, I just won't participate. I certainly wasn't the cause of any of the discussion against the game before now.

Yes, I said the game sucks. No, that wasn't a very in depth analysis of the game. Strangely enough, as this is the voting thread, all I was doing was telling people what I voted. I wasn't trying to convince people not to vote for it, because if people want to play it, why should I tell them otherwise? But telling me I'm wrong for my opinion because I think it's a boring and generic game in a boring and generic genre doesn't change anything - it's obviously not my thing, why let it bother you?

[Menegrothx]

You also seem to be including me amongst the negative sentiment in the nominations thread, but you'll actually find I never really got involved in the anti-Deus Ex discussion - I honestly don't mind if it gets voted in, I just won't participate. I certainly wasn't the cause of any of the discussion against the game before now.

My point was that the negative discourse on the game so far hasn't been convincing: you could make the kind of points you and dsenheim have made on any game on the list and say a popular game that has a lot of votes should not be played because of you say so.

I don't care if you're voting against Deus Ex, I think it should be a democratic process. What I do mind is this

no. drop this poll, Mike. They aren't related and for those of us who have to do the write ups this is dumb. Space Harrier and ST should be in. Deus Ex can be debated again next year.

That is, saying we should ignore people's support for a game and not have any kind of democratic voting process at all because you personally oppose the game.

Most of the people I've seen vigorously defending the game are already fans. Good for you, I'm glad you enjoyed it, but if you did, why are you pushing so hard for the game in Together Retro? It seems a lot of people on this forum already have an opinion on the game one way or the other. So many of us have already played it, what's the point of playing it again?

This goes for all Together retro games. People want games they feel are underrated, great for TR, what ever, to be included in TR so more people would play the game. Same goes for voting.

The plot is boring

Whether the plot is boring or not is irrelevant. What is special in Deus Ex's plot is
a) It makes social commentary and raises interesting philosophical questions regarding things like human augmentation and democracy. It makes you think. That is rare in video games
b) You have some level of choice regarding the plot. While it's ultimately linear, there are multiple ways to solve some important situations, which makes the game more immersive and "realistic". That too is very rare in video games (and no, I'm not talking about black and white moral choices where you get to choose how the story branches, I'm talking about actual player choices&consequences)

Again, there's a reason why this game is rated highly on "best video game stories of all time" lists and is number 3 on "best written RPGs of all time" as voted by the members of a RPG community.

the gameplay is generic

How could the gameplay be generic when there weren't any other games like it when it was released? If we picked Super Mario Bros for Together Retro, I could nitpick what an awful game it is because I've played Super Mario Bros 3 and Super Mario World. That defeats the purpose of Together Retro (historical perspective)

Judging by that comment alone, it seems like you haven't played many games of this type and/or you don't know much about game design, because any one who understands the genre, design&history of games knows that for a game made in 2000, Deus Ex in no way has "generic gameplay".

and the 'open' level design just leads to a selection of bland and half-formed gameplay ideas that never reach the heights it could have had it just focused on one.

Deus Ex is mix of Half Life, Thief and System Shock. All of those games did their own thing better. Half Life had better linear, non intrusive story telling. Thief had sophisticated AI, stealth gameplay and level design. System Shock is a mechanically a much better FPS/RPG mix and has in some ways a story that is much better written. Deus Ex is jack of all trades but master of none. What is special about it is that it combined all those elements together when no one had ever done that before. Like said, some of the gameplay elements of Deus Ex are mediocre on their own right, but when put together, they form a cohesive system that works much better than expected.

[Violent By Design]

Why bring up democracy when peoples votes against Deus Ex were out right ignored? I don't get that point at all.

[Menegrothx]

Because it was said that negative votes would complicate the voting system too much. And like I said, if it was clear from the start that every one was allowed to give negative votes, more people would have done it (myself included) to a number of different games and not just Deus Ex.
Why single out an individual game anyways? It's just better if people just vote for the games they want to see and we choose the ones with the most votes (while trying to have as much variety in there as possible). I don't play sports&racing games, so should I -1 every single racing&sports game that gets nominated? Maybe I think beat em ups are boring and repetitive and have generic gameplay, so I'll -1 all beat em ups that get nominated.

[Violent By Design]

Because it was said that negative votes would complicate the voting system too much.

And how did we come to that conclusion? We didn't vote on that at all. Someone merely just said it is too complicated and that is that. How is that democracy? I'm not saying to redo everything, but don't bring up democracy there when clearly everyone's voice was not properly represented on the subject.


As for it being complicated, well that just isn't true. Taking away a vote and adding a vote requires the same level of arithmetic. Taking away a vote is no more complicated than adding a vote.

Why single out an individual game anyways?

Because some people don't want to play it, obviously.

It's just better if people just vote for the games they want to see and we choose the ones with the most votes (while trying to have as much variety in there as possible).

Because some people don't want to play certain games.

If 10 people want to play one game, but 7 people dont want to play that game is that some how better than 6 people wanting to play one game with no negative feed back? Doesn't make sense to me.

I don't play sports&racing games, so should I -1 every single racing&sports game that gets nominated

You say that as if you have just check mated me. This crux that you would have down voted games if you were allowed isn't exactly phasing anyone. Why would anyone be offended that you would out right state you did not want to play certain games?

If anything not playing a game due to its genre (your example) has less merit than omitting an individual game. Aside from that, it's your right to say you do not want to play a racer or a sports game, I would think you were close minded, but it's not like there are not 50 other genres to chose from. I'm not sure how Deus Ex can be compared to like 15 other genres that Sports and Racing represents.

[Menegrothx]

It was the person who did the count voting that said that. If you're willing to count the votes, set up the polls etc instead of him, then maybe you can make a rule that allows negative votes.
All I see that leading to is that people give negative votes to the types of games they usually don't play and positive votes to the kind of games that they usually play, which again defeats the purpose of Together Retro as I understand it, playing all kinds of historically important and otherwise classic video games you maybe normally wouldn't play or never got around of playing.

[Violent By Design]

It was the person who did the count voting that said that. If you're willing to count the votes, set up the polls etc instead of him, then maybe you can make a rule that allows negative votes.

I'm well aware, but again, don't bring up democracy when that isn't democracy. That was an executive decision.

All I see that leading to is that people give negative votes to the types of games they usually don't play and positive votes to the kind of games that they usually play, which again defeats the purpose of Together Retro as I understand it, playing all kinds of historically important and otherwise classic video games you maybe normally wouldn't play or never got around of playing.

That wouldn't happen, and you really have no basis for that. It's not like anyone is down voting Deus Ex because it is a shooting RPG, people are down voting it because they have played it and do not like the game. That doesn't match up with your concerns.

You keep bringing up this genre type of thing when Deus Ex is not a genre. Deus Ex is a single game. It would be one thing if people were voting against Deus Ex because it was a shooter, but people are voting against Deus Ex because they've played it before and thought it was boring.

[Menegrothx]

You keep bringing up this genre type of thing when Deus Ex is not a genre. Deus Ex is a single game. It would be one thing if people were voting against Deus Ex because it was a shooter, but people are voting against Deus Ex because they've played it before and thought it was boring.

You're true that game!=genre, but the chances are that if people find certain game boring/aren't willing to give it a chance in the first place, they're going to treat the whole genre the same way.

alienjesus criticized people nominating games that they're fans of/want to play, so I don't see what the goal is here.
1. To play games that "educate" gamers: Force people to play different kind of important games of the past to broaden their minds
or
2. To play games that are the most popular.

For example I don't see why F-zero is a certain choice when Deus Ex isn't when the latter got more votes and created more discourse, and I've played plenty enough of F-zero so I don't feel like playing it. But I don't mind it being chosen if it serves a purpose: 1. to bring more diversity to the list of games 2. if it's historically important game or it's a very well designed game.

The way I see it, there should be some kind of equilibrium between the two: most nominated games get chosen, but having diversity and introducing people to important classics they may have not played (and maybe aren't willing to play if it's not part of something like Together Retro) is equally important. So if 3 different FPS games all get 12 votes and a roguelike and a visual novel get 8&9 votes, even if the FPS dudebros don't want to play those, it makes more sense to play 1 FPS, 1 roguelike and 1 visual novel than 3 FPS's.
For example M.U.L.E, which to my recollection wasn't all that discussed/popular before the vote, was chosen (it got more yes than no votes in the end though). From the thread:

If the support isnt there, it's hardly a 'Together' Retro. I vote no.

A fair enough assessment. However the founding core of TR was to not only play good games you may have missed but also historically relevant games in a variety of genres. While MULE is a historically relevant game , it almost single handedly created the economic sim genre, it is also a fantastic multiplayer game, that the majority of gamers have probably never heard of let alone played. Heck even industry greats give it credit: Will Wright stated it was a primary influence for The Sims and Miyamoto said it was one of hte driving factors to make Pikmin.

[Sload Soap]

I went for the first option because I want the people who don't like Deus Ex to give it another go, although I do agree that ST and SP don't have much in common beyond their arcade sensibilities. It's a tough one.

Without wanting to fuel the flames I must ask why Shock Troopers has been chosen over Space Harrier as the must play game? Space Harrier is probably the more historically important game, it's also the more critically acclaimed and widely available. Is it that it is too well known?

Personally I win whatever the outcome as I love all three of these games. I'm just a bit confused as to why one gets preference over the others.