Discussion on Welfare and other Social Programs

[ZeroAX]

I just love how Republicans want people to be tested before being given welfare, but they don't want people to have mental tests and background checks before they buy a gun.


Also I find it really hilarious that for all the corruption in my country, I have never seen people on the receiving end of welfare abuse it. Usually the ones who abuse it are the ones giving it (politicians buying more expensive medicine cause they received a bribe from a pharmaceutical company for example). The ones receiving it on the other hand understand how important it is. Specially in the current times (though we also have neighbor and family "welfare" which is big here cause family still exists, so if someone did try to get welfare he didn't need, his entire circle would know about it and he would make a giant fool of himself).



BTW I have to ask. For those of you who think that people who have expensive stuff don't deserve welfare: If you lost your job tomorrow, what would you do first? Other than registering with employment agencies of course. Would you sell your car, house and cell phone, which you know are going to have a much lower value than the money you payed for them originally (except for the house ofc), or would you ask for unemployment benefits?

[dsheinem]

good to see we've added drug addict-shaming to poor-shaming in this thread. also saw some almost racist stuff.

good thread.

I should feel ashamed because I don't feel drug-addicts should get free handouts while they get high while I have to work for my money?

No, but most people who are addicts would love to be able to quit and get their lives in order. I think we should offer (not force) a drug test for welfare recipients as well - as a way to give ADDITIONAL assistance (in the form of rehab, medical care, and education) to those who suffer from a drug addiction.

[BurningDoom]

I'm not political guy. I don't really call myself a Republican or a Democrat. I don't own a gun (but I got a cool Katanna blade ).

I just know it's a big problem in my particular neck of the woods. Anyone in my area, Republican, Democrat, or otherwise; I'm sure, would agree on that.

Oh, I'm also not rich nor do I own expensive things. I live in an upstair 2-bedroom apartment. I drive a 2004 Dodge Neon. And I have a TracPhone flip-phone. Part of the reason I'm a retro-gamer is because it keeps gaming costs down.

[marurun]

And I did mention a source, ABC News. If that doesn't count as a legitimate source, I don't know what does.

You are correct. You did list a normally legit source. However, even legit sources sometimes get info wrong. In this case, they got it wrong.

I'm not saying California doesn't have a welfare problem. I'm saying it hasn't been linked to fraud or abuse. I'm also saying that California DOES NOT have more people on welfare than people who are employed.

Here's the bit that's important, that pulls all this together:

"The total employment in California, for example, was about 14.4 million in November, according to preliminary estimates from the Bureau of Labor Statistics. And more than 12 million of those employees worked in the private sector. California had slightly more than 1.4 million TANF recipients as of December 2011, according to the most recent figures from the Department of Health and Human Services, and the state had a little more than 4.1 million SNAP participants as of October 2012, according to initial estimates from the Department of Agriculture. None of the other states on Baldwin’s list has more recipients of TANF or participants in SNAP than the number of private or total workers, either.

Even when using Baldwin’s definition of “welfare” — those enrolled in Medicaid — none of the states on the list has more enrollees than workers, whether in the private sector or overall.

California had about 7.4 million people receiving Medicaid as of June 2011, according to the most recent figures from the Kaiser Commission on Medicaid and the Uninsured. That figure is about 39 percent less than the number of private workers and 49 percent less than the total number of workers.

(A word of caution: You cannot add the number of recipients for all three programs in California or any other state and compare that with the number of total employees, because of overlap that would result in double-counting.)"

[aaron]

okay. seriously.

the idea that "tax money" is somehow still "your money" or you are deserving in some way shape or form to directly benefit from your direct contribution through tax payment is absolutely mind-numbingly absurd and reeks of entitlement issues. "your" tax dollars did not fund a welfare program on its own any more than "your" tax dollars funded all of the roads you drive on, the schools you've attended, or the sewers you've put shit into. paying taxes is a function of a civilized society and if you have a problem with how your tax dollars are spent, then i suggest you either run for office or move to the third world.

carry on with your classist, ignorant bullshit if you must, but if i see someone talk about some "thay're spandin' mah money!" garbage again i might explode.

/non-productive

[Forlorn Drifter]

or the sewers you've put shit into.

I put my shit into a septic tank I help build, thank you very little.

I would like to somewhat retract some of what I've said in this thread, although I do stand by my beliefs on personal responsibility and the fact that most people (as of today, my mother included.) buy cars that are way too damn expensive.

[BurningDoom]

Damn straight it's "my money". I worked my ass off for the little bit of crap I do have. I'm no better off than anyone else. Like I said, old car, crap phone, apartment living. But I worked for it all. I didn't decide that it was okay to stay at home and get high instead, and then ask for a free-handout.

Those that are down on their luck, and looking for hand up to get a job, then yeah. That's what welfare was designed for. Or those that can't work such as the disabled or the situation I described with my mom and my disabled brother. Then again, yeah, that's what welfare is for. I fully support it. Those that NEED a helping hand, should get it.

What I'm against is the drug addicts and some that are just living the welfare lifestyle rather than having a legitimate reason. Those people have zero right to say it's unfair to place regulations and drug tests on them when the those that are trying to find employment and those that do work have to have the same happen to them when looking for a job.

You talk about "classist", well then why can't the welfare recipient be subjected to the same drug-tests and regulations the working classs are subjected to?

[aaron]

Damn straight it's "my money". I worked my ass off for the little bit of crap I do have. I'm no better off than anyone else. Like I said, old car, crap phone, apartment living. But I worked for it all. I didn't decide that it was okay to stay at home and get high instead, and then ask for a free-handout.

absolutely no one is trying to deny you the things you have worked for. paying taxes is not voluntary, and once you have remitted your tax contribution to the government, it is no longer "your money." you make the choice by living in this country to pay that tax, just like you make the choice to get diarrhea if you spend your money on white castle or whatever.

Those that are down on their luck, and looking for hand up, then yeah. That's what welfare was designed for. Or those that can't work such as the disabled or the situation I described with my mom and my disabled brother. Then again, yeah, that's what welfare is for. I fully support it. Those that NEED a helping hand, should get it.

ok. we're on the same page then.

What I'm against is the drug addicts and some that are just living the welfare lifestyle rather than having a legitimate reason. Those people have zero right to say it's unfair to place regulations and drug tests on them when the those that are trying to find employment and those that do work have to have the same happen to them when looking for a job.

You talk about "classist", well then why can't the welfare recipient be subjected to the same drug-tests and regulations the working classs are subjected to?

it's because the cost greatly outweighs any potential benefit. that would be even more of "your money" put to waste just to deny a small percentage of people benefits so that people like you feel better about where "their money" is going. even if it's more of it. this has been explained in detail, in this thread, numerous times.

i don't know why i feel compelled to respond to this, but i did, so there you go. also nu-metal sucks and anyone who listens to it deserves a punch in the face.

[Jmustang1968]

I am basically done with this thread.

Dave where is the racism you were citing? And voluntary drug testing?? You think drug users on welfare are going to volunteer to take drug tests? They don't need a test to tell you they use.

Political discussion on this site is pointless. It is about 3/4 or more left leaning, and it turns into liberal bullying and ideological circle jerk of many teaming up on the few conservative leaning posters. This is done time and again, some more aggressive than others by shaming, guilt tripping, or just outright hostility calling those who have different ideologies than you stupid, greedy, classist etc... This quashes meaningful debate and discussion. Instead of discussing our points, you guys mostly take on the crusade of a side in the larger national debate. You act is if you are defending a system that is infallible and doesn't need or deserve criticism or improvement.

[oxymoron]

absolutely no one is trying to deny you the things you have worked for. paying taxes is not voluntary, and once you have remitted your tax contribution to the government, it is no longer "your money." you make the choice by living in this country to pay that tax, just like you make the choice to get diarrhea if you spend your money on white castle or whatever.
.

So does that mean that it's okay when the IRS spends 60k of the hardworking Americans tax money on a party? Unfortunately, ignorance isn't bliss in this context. You can't just say "well, it's isn't our money anymore so they can do whatever they want with it". Jmustang and BurningDoom have pretty much been on the ball in this thread imo.