Discussion on Welfare and other Social Programs

[Erik_Twice]

There's this narrative in this country that anyone on the bottom is there because they deserve to be there, and it's something I'm tired of.

A narrative proven by statistics (They are in the Norris hates America thread)

Victim blaming, that's what this is.

[marurun]

... but... personal responsibility is given too much weight.

I would say not enough weight.

If everyone was responsible for their actions most lawyers would be out of a job. But that's a different discussion.

Personal responsibility can only be given so much weight. The desk is so stacked against us. Upward mobility is so statistically unlikely as to be nearly impossible. The government and companies have incredible swaths of information and influence over us, and we have little to none over them. Regulation of and laws concerning large entities perpetuate their power and continue to strip us of our own.

We cannot rely on personal responsibility when personal responsibility, in its best moments, can barely keep us afloat. We must first change laws, change structures to empower our ability to influence our own lives, and then, only then, can we blame ourselves. Right now, so many we look down on as having failed as a result of personal choices really failed because they never had a chance to begin with. They may have made 99 right choices, but that last one sunk them. They may have made 99 wrong choices. The end result is the same, and we can't lump them both together, though that's what we do, structurally.

[Jmustang1968]

I think you paint much too grim a future. The odds are not that stacked against us. Maybe they are in Cleveland, as I know that town has fallen on tough times, but I don't think it is nearly as bad as you make it out to be elsewhere.

It is really that hard to calculate your income vs debt payments before deciding to buy a car or house?

And with upward mobility, are you speaking of becoming wealthy or rich or middle class and somewhat comfortable?

[J T]

A friend of mine from a very wealthy family went to dental school and during that time got married and had a baby. He had back surgery and was using food stamps and receiving unemployment. He still had his fancy car and everything then, but he bounced back and is making good money and paying back into the system again, now from a high tax bracket.

I think that is a perfectly legitimate and good use of the system. He wasn't on it for long and it helped him get through a rough patch and keep performing at a high level through a difficult period.

I think the real problem is that nobody knows what to do with the people who are on government assistance for life. In many cases, you can't leave them without any support or they'll just die, but if they don't have resources to get a decent job, then they can't find work that pays better than their government benefits. I really don't know what to do about those people and I wish there was a viable solution for getting them off government assistance and reintegrated into society, but there just isn't yet. It keeps ending up a question of keep supporting them or let them waste.

[marurun]

I think you paint much too grim a future. The odds are not that stacked against us. Maybe they are in Cleveland, as I know that town has fallen on tough times, but I don't think it is nearly as bad as you make it out to be elsewhere.

...

And with upward mobility, are you speaking of becoming wealthy or rich or middle class and somewhat comfortable?

Upward mobility is the idea that you can improve your lot in life. If you are born poor, it is becoming middle class or better. If you are middle class, it's becoming better than that. The US currently has a comparatively poor mobility rating, which means embedded wealth is too powerful. This isn't to say that it's hopeless to try to be not-poor, but it's not overwhelmingly successful, either. As many people try to improve their lives through hard work fail as succeed.

Here's some info on social mobility. The first is a Wikipedia link, but it draws from pretty solid sources, so I'm giving it credit.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_mob ... comparison

http://www.economist.com/node/3518560?story_id=3518560

http://www.ns.umich.edu/new/releases/20 ... udies-show

http://www.nationalreview.com/agenda/35 ... ihan-salam

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/05/us/ha ... d=all&_r=0

[BurningDoom]

Welfare is a plague where I live. SOOOO many people just suck off the system while they do drugs, in my hometown. And I just saw last night on the news that in my state (California), there are actually more people on welfare than there are people employed.

They're trying to push for laws to require drug tests for welfare recipients here. Opponents are crying that it's unfair and unconstitutional. Oh really? So I have to be drug-tested to get a job, but you guys shouldn't have to be drug-tested to receive free money? Pffft.

For those that actually use the system as intended, as a crutch until you find a job (and actively seek a job), or for the disabled; it's a great thing. Unfortunately far too many people abuse the system.

[Forlorn Drifter]

I'm with the side who believes that personal responsibility has a lot more to do with it. Opportunities and choices abound, and everyone needs to be able to sit down and take everything into consideration before making their choice. For example, I could drop out of school right now and have a job making $73K a year. Five days a week work, most of it simple driving. I've chosen that, unless the shit hits the fan or I knock a girl up or something, (knocking a girl up would also be my fault, as I chose to have sex, personal responsibility...) I won't take that job because I could potentially do much better by finishing school and going to college, despite that job offering me more per year than my father has ever made.

I also fail to see (as it keeps coming up, in my story and others) why people are so stuck on having a new vehicle. A guy that used to do some yard work and such for my grandpa happened to be on food stamps at the time, and he lived in an old gutted school bus down the road near some of his family. He saved all the cash he got and everything to buy a brand new motorcycle, despite having 3 already, living in a bus, and barely scraping by to eat. He wanted it to impress his biker buddies. How can one be so stupid?

[Jmustang1968]

Gator Boots, with the pimped out Gucci suit
Ain't got no job, but I stay sharp
Can't pay my rent, cause all my money's spent
but thats OK, cause I'm still fly
got a quarter tank gas in my new E-class
But that's alright cause I'm gon' ride
got everything in my moma's name
but I'm hood rich da dada dada da

[Erik_Twice]

So I have to be drug-tested to get a job, but you guys shouldn't have to be drug-tested to receive free money? Pffft.

Free money? What's next? Complaining about the poor having access "free education", "free lawyers" and "free protection from beatings and natural disasters"?

Of course, given how many Americans think poor people shouldn't have access to healthcare. It's easy to ignore welfare when you don't need it.

[marurun]

Unfortunately far too many people abuse the system.

As has been mentioned before, there is no data out there to support this assertion. All research into the matter has pegged fraud and abuse of the system fairly low, making up a miniscule portion of all benefits that are paid out. If you intend to stand by that assertion I'm going to have to ask you to back it up with something concrete.

Here is an article that refutes that:

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/arc ... ud/278690/

Furthermore, in at least one state (I cannot remember which) that started requiring drug testing, the drug tests were costing the state more than it was saving in benefits it didn't pay out to those who were on drugs.

http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/20/2 ... -cost.html