Discussion on Welfare and other Social Programs

[AppleQueso]

Not just a handful of cases with fiscal responsibility. Many live beyond their means. When unfortunate circumstances strike, they then have no nest egg or plans to fall back on. And, they don't have to as they know they will be taken care of. Therefore, people have no incentive to not live beyond their means.

And the alternative is that we just let people crash and burn. Do you really want that?

[Jmustang1968]

Not just a handful of cases with fiscal responsibility. Many live beyond their means. When unfortunate circumstances strike, they then have no nest egg or plans to fall back on. And, they don't have to as they know they will be taken care of. Therefore, people have no incentive to not live beyond their means.

And the alternative is that we just let people crash and burn. Do you really want that?

No, if it wasn't as widespread, and was given out with more discretion, it would force those to be more responsible. My parents and grandparents before them couldn't afford us luxuries but once in a rare while. They got by, but they took care of essentials first. Food, utilities, shelter, insurance, nest egg etc... Now it is, rent, bar money, tv, food, nice car, phone data plan... Despite what people think, having a $100+ a month data phone plan is not a necessity. I am generalizing of course, and not everyone is irresponsible, but this is a vastly growing trend.

When my wife was laid off, most of her co-workers were excited. Everyone got a small (1 month pay) severance and then unemployment. They were talking about looking forward to their long 'vacations' while sitting on unemployment. Then when my wife got a job again, she had some HR duties at her new position involving initially contacting and phone interviewing potential new hires. A large % of the applicants either outright admitted to her that they didn't want the position but just applied due to unemployment requirements or failed to show up for interviews, return phone calls, or acted in a manner that was very obvious that they didn't want to be hired. I was shocked honestly with how often this occurred.

While this is a small sample, this many instances of such a thing happening is usually an indicator of a more widespread issue. I am not painting all recipients as evil or lazy/greedy etc... But it is an issue.

[Luke]

incentive

That is what it all boils down to: Incentive.

If you give people free money, what gives them an incentive to work?

[aaron]

all i am trying to say is you should not assume things about people that you do not know under the pretense that they owe you something (in this case, proper usage of your tax dollars, or possibly the feel-goodery generated by helping someone who actually looks like they are in need).

[Luke]

all i am trying to say is you should not assume things about people that you do not know...

It's human nature for some to be "set off" to make assumptions when valid indicators are present; say a twenty year old parking in a handicapped spot and running out of his car.

I agree you should not prejudge, but I'm also on the side that if you do make a snap judgement that makes you uncomfortable, confront the person that pissed you off. Politely at first of course.

Believe me, I am very capable of getting my face stomped by a stranger, but that doesn't stop me from being vocal and getting Dudley Do-Right.

[KitKatCara]

you're using the exact same logic here, though, in assuming that because someone has nice "things" and is using government assistance, then they are automatically gaming the system and shouldn't use it. i have seen this logical fallacy trumpeted time and time again and i personally believe it boils down to what people thing "poor people" SHOULD look like or how they SHOULD behave. my (personal) problem with this line of thinking is that it is completely uncalled for and makes it all the more demeaning for the person on the receiving end of the benefits. i've been on wic, and i've been on snap, and it fucking sucks. it sucks even more when you pull out the card (or checks, if you're using WIC) and people look at you like you should be wearing rags, using a flip phone, and driving away in something like Jed Clampett's jalopy.

I agree with this. If you are wearing, driving, or using anything that does not have rust or rips on it and you walk into that WIC office, people are going to judge you. I had to get WIC when my child was born, and even though I didn't need formula, I still received groceries from it and stood there holding my newborn baby while people made comments about how 'That baby can't eat peanut butter. She's playing the system!' just low enough for me to barely hear. I got food for me that allowed me to nourish my child. To some who don't understand how breastfeeding, or eating a healthy diet works, it looked like I was being greedy because it was an adult diet.

I also don't dress 'poor'. I don't think I do anyway. I have a lot of high dollar clothes that I have bought at consignment shops that make me look like a business woman when I wear them. I'd be willing to bet that I could rival Luke in class wearing my suits. I have lots of jewelry that is worth a lot of money that has been given to me or passed down. Just recently (before the stuff with Jinx happened), I bought 4 suits and two dresses that were all Ann Taylor and only spent 47 bucks on all of them. My mother bought a Coach purse for only 12 bucks. If you wear anything that doesn't look like it was purchased at walmart to the clinic, you are going to get stares.

I do think that if you apply for these benefits though, you should have to take classes that are appropriate to what you are applying for. When I got WIC, I was required to take parenting classes, nutritional classes, and the option for financial classes was available to me at no cost. They also mentioned that at the community clinic next door we could volunteer our time to clean play areas, organize events, etc. The volunteer opportunities were not mandatory, but it did make some of us feel better for giving back, even if it wasn't cash.

I can understand the frustration when someone pays for food with food stamps and looks like they don't need them, but in reality we don't know whats going on in their personal life. Really, its none of our business. Unless you see them actively abusing their privileges, then you should call to report, but that's it. The system is being abused, but not as much as you think it is.

[AppleQueso]

Yup, all of that ties right into the typical narrative people like to push that people getting benefits are all scammers because they don't look appropriately "poor enough," which is the entire thing that we've been saying.

Statistically, actual benefits fraud is less costly and less common than tax evasion, but nobody seems particularly concerned about the latter by comparison.

[dsheinem]

it's getting all Republican-y up in here

[marurun]

I can understand the frustration when someone pays for food with food stamps and looks like they don't need them, but in reality we don't know whats going on in their personal life. Really, its none of our business. Unless you see them actively abusing their privileges, then you should call to report, but that's it. The system is being abused, but not as much as you think it is.

I think this is an essential element of understanding this. Everyone knows an exception. Everything thinks they know or have seen someone who's ripping off the system. In reality, the norm is hard-working folks in tough times. Most actual research (with data collection, proper methods, etc..., as opposed to anecdotal "but I saw x" kinda stuff) into welfare-type services is that fraud rates are incredibly low and cost the government relatively little. Most who receive aid don't want to have to and are hard-working and have simply fallen on bad times.

The idea that we're living at the edge of our means because of a social safety net is also patently false. There are a great many other nations with much more robust social safety nets than us, and their citizens are not disincentivized to work. Many of these nations save better than us, live more within their means, AND have a better system to fall back on in hard times. Our problems are, rather, cultural, and have a lot to do with rampant consumerism and the free reign companies have to lead us into financial obligations which are good for them and bad for us.

[aaron]

I can understand the frustration when someone pays for food with food stamps and looks like they don't need them, but in reality we don't know whats going on in their personal life. Really, its none of our business. Unless you see them actively abusing their privileges, then you should call to report, but that's it. The system is being abused, but not as much as you think it is.

thank you for understanding and summarizing in a way less hostile-sounding way