The Wrestling Thread

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Gamerforlife
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

Post by Gamerforlife »

Menegrothx wrote:Does that mean you don't enjoy puroresu at all? Atleast I never watch japanese promos, interviews etc, only the matches, I have no idea what's going on story wise, but I enjoy all the cool and hard hitting moves

On the whole Benoit thing: I don't see how he is that much different from, say, Goldberg or Lesnar. If being stoic and scary can work for big strong guys, why not for smaller and more technical guys like Malenko and Benoit? As long as they have presence and look confident in what they do (mannerisms, how they walk to the ring etc). And I think it's important to realize that the same formula doesn't work for all wrestlers. A guy like Benoit shouldn't put in a situation where he has to do a lot of back and forth talking, but rather keep it short and sweet, that way it might have more impact.

Btw, which do you guys prefer: the old bad ass Rock of 1998-2000 or the hyper active Rock of 2001-2002 (I'd put Hollywood Heel rock in the same category). He had a lower voice and was more bad ass when he was heel, and then when he was doing the heel to face transition. Later on he got rid of the flashy clothing, his voice was more high pitch and rather than acting cool and callous, he was super hyped up and excited in his promos.
I kind of bring this up because my previous point about Chris Benoit reminds me of this:
at first Rock was just a regular bad ass, and he's say something amusing and insulting like "go suck on a monkey's nipple" to the interviewer. Later on as he was the face of the company, he would set up his jokes for minutes before there was finally a punchline (at times). I feel like the comedy stuff carried over from his heel antics to the point that they got carried over with his whole funny guy role.
Lesnar has a presence that Benoit never did. Granted, part of that is due to his size and he knows how to leverage that by looking like a badass. Benoit was just a little guy trying to look tough. That just doesn't work. Little guys don't look intimidating in wrestling. Little guys need personality and mics skills as well as in ring talent. They have to work harder. I'm not saying that's fair, but it's the truth. All the great little men had to be the total package. HBK, Eddie, Punk, Bryan, Jericho, etc, etc. They have to work harder. Compare them to a guy like Rey Mysterio who is just plain boring because he doesn't have the mic skills and looks like a shrimp. He's over because of his in ring skills, but he'll never be regarded as well as the other guys I just mentioned. If Benoit had the attitude and mic skills of a CM Punk, he'd have been far more interesting. Look at Daniel Bryan. He's everything Benoit was and so much more. Benoit never could get it all right, and many thought Bryan would fall into the same mold and he surprised us all.

Getting back to Lesnar, he benefits a lot right now from having Heyman as a mouth piece plus the UFC credibility. Goldberg was a no talent guy who just got booked very well and had size on his side too. Goldberg was an experiment done well, but not one of the true greats of wrestling. I'm not hating on him, but that's the truth.

As for the Rock, I'm biased. He is in my opinion one of the best characters and talkers of all time and even at his worst was better than 90% of WWE's roster in being a talker and entertainer. He is one of the true icons of the WWE, along with Hogan and Austin and probably one or two other guys who are before my time. Those three transcended the sport, more so Hogan and the Rock in my opinion. Cena has been pushed for years to be on the same level, but he's never had the talent to hang with those three guys and never will. Eventually, another guy will come along and be the TRUE face of the WWE on the same level as the Rock, Hogan and Austin and will show us all how truly inadequate Cena was in that role. That guy could be Daniel Bryan. He certainly is being pushed that way right now.
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

Post by Menegrothx »

Gamerforlife wrote: Getting back to Lesnar, he benefits a lot right now from having Heyman as a mouth piece plus the UFC credibility. Goldberg was a no talent guy who just got booked very well and had size on his side too. Goldberg was an experiment done well, but not one of the true greats of wrestling. I'm not hating on him, but that's the truth.
Yeah I was going to mention Heyman. Even though Goldberg hasn't got that great in ring skills (*), he still has that Spartan God of War Kratos look. The way he stares at people, walks to the ring etc. Some guys have that kind of confidence and "groove" in the way they carry themselves. Like even when Eddie Guerrero wasn't talking at all, the way he acted and moved around on the ring just oozed charisma and character
*Though they're better than people generally think: he did some great athlethic stuff for a guy his size during his early WCW days and later on in Japan, but like most WCW main eventers, he was doing lazy performances when he was at the top in WCW.
Gamerforlife wrote: As for the Rock, I'm biased. He is in my opinion one of the best characters and talkers of all time and even at his worst was better than 90% of WWE's roster in being a talker and entertainer.
That doesn't answer my question though. My top 3 entertainers/whole packages is Rock, Angle and Y2J. I still liked him in 2001/2002 and he was extremely entertaining then too. I've just made the realization that I personally prefer that older character. Although even then he didn't pander the audience the same way he now does, I feel that they sort of sold out the character over time. He was no longer rude but charismatic jock/success, he was more clean baby face (no more 500 dollar shirts, less bragging/im better than every one else attitude+the whole "I'm in city X so I gotta say great things about it" and "the people made me, the people are great, it's because of the people that we do this"-shtick).
BurningDoom wrote: I like Rock from anytime before he left the first time. After he came back, went heel, and had that huge tribal tattoo on his shoulder; he was never quite as good again. But even then he's still better than 99% of WWE's current roster.
Many people find it to be the best work he ever did.
I wonder, could John Cena ever go heel again? Both Stone Cold and The Rock went heel when they were still super popular and relevant, though past their prime/peak. Stone Colds heel run was a failure, but The Rock was great. I just can't see John Cena going heel now and telling the audience that they don't have enough class to live in Manhattan and that's why they have to live Skank island (Rhode Island) :lol:
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

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^ I found his heel run when he was running with The Corporation to be absolutely awesome. His near-end of career heel run, not nearly as cool. But like I said, it was still better than most of the current wrestlers.
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

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Menegrothx wrote:top in WCW.
Gamerforlife wrote: As for the Rock, I'm biased. He is in my opinion one of the best characters and talkers of all time and even at his worst was better than 90% of WWE's roster in being a talker and entertainer.
That doesn't answer my question though. My top 3 entertainers/whole packages is Rock, Angle and Y2J. I still liked him in 2001/2002 and he was extremely entertaining then too. I've just made the realization that I personally prefer that older character. Although even then he didn't pander the audience the same way he now does, I feel that they sort of sold out the character over time. He was no longer rude but charismatic jock/success, he was more clean baby face (no more 500 dollar shirts, less bragging/im better than every one else attitude+the whole "I'm in city X so I gotta say great things about it" and "the people made me, the people are great, it's because of the people that we do this"-shtick).
You can't really blame the Rock for that. It's just the nature of the WWE today. It's corporate and family friendly and this is what the typical babyface promo sounds like now. Edge did the very same thing last week. "I'm here because of you fans. This town is great. I feel like I'm home again. Blah, blah, blah, please tune in to watch my show Haven" You can possibly blame Benoit for the state of the WWE today with all the negative press he brought to them with his murder, or maybe Linda McMahon and her political career that forced the WWE to clean up its act in order for her to play hypocrite.
Menegrothx wrote:
BurningDoom wrote: I like Rock from anytime before he left the first time. After he came back, went heel, and had that huge tribal tattoo on his shoulder; he was never quite as good again. But even then he's still better than 99% of WWE's current roster.
Many people find it to be the best work he ever did.
I wonder, could John Cena ever go heel again? Both Stone Cold and The Rock went heel when they were still super popular and relevant, though past their prime/peak. Stone Colds heel run was a failure, but The Rock was great. I just can't see John Cena going heel now and telling the audience that they don't have enough class to live in Manhattan and that's why they have to live Skank island (Rhode Island) :lol:
I think a lot of wrestling fans would shoot their own mother in the face just to see Cena FINALLY go heel. I'm exaggerating of course, but seriously, the Cena heel turn is what EVERYONE has wanted for years now...and it keeps not happening. We're all hoping that a heel turn would finally make Cena entertaining and relevant again. And that maybe he'd shine in that role the way he NEVER has as a face. Cena's not a good face. That's a fact. A good face doesn't have people booing him, especially when he's supposed to be the face of the company. A heel role might be his true calling
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

Post by Menegrothx »

I get the impression that Cena is very corporate and ungenuine when ever he is interviewed (not as in promos, but real interviews). He feels very much like a PR man, the same way Vince McMahon is, smiling that phoney smile and assuring that everything's OK. Even Hulk Hogan doesn't feel as crooked in his interviews. HHH who's a similiar backstage politician on the other hand feels quite genuine and honest in his interviews. I've watched a lot of WCW, ECW and WWF/WWE wrestlers shoot interviews on youtube and I can honestly say that Cena feels the most phoney and kiss ass out of them by a wide margin. Out of still active active industry veterans, Chris Jericho feels like the most open and honest in his interviews.

I do wonder, what ever happened to Cena. He is such a far cry from his 2003 persona, and people were saying back then that's the real John Cena. Even back in 2005 when he was the face champion, it still felt like he had integrity and genuineness left in his character.
Also, this
Image
There was still some of that "edgyness" left in his character during that JBL feud, when they first introduced the spinner belt. Remember the bad man song? I liked it at the time :oops:
Though this interview is from that time period, and he feels as fake then as now
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

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Gamerforlife wrote:
Menegrothx wrote:
RCBH928 wrote: I know some will argue that there are the "techniques" of wrestling, and "in ring skills" , but in the truth is pro-wrestling is a show. People want to come in and see a show, and a good show is put on by a good character. I really doubt the the stardom The Rock got was because of the extra "in ring skills" he built since the time he was known as "Rocky Maivia" or that Stone Cold Steve Austin had better techniques than the time he was Stunning Steve Austin
That's true, but if I had to choose between watching a show with 1 hour and 45 minutes of great wrestling and 15 minutes of uncharismatic promos vs a show with 1½ hours of talking and 1½ hours of mediocre wrestling (if even that much), I'd choose the former. Unless some one is as entertaining on the microphone as Chris Jericho, The Rock, Kurt Angle and Edge(+Christian) were in late 1990s&early 2000s, then no matter how much of a character they are, all the talking is going to become boring sooner or later. Nothing's worse than a droning 20 minute Triple H promo where nothing happens (funny how The Rock knew to do a parody of that in 2000 before that had even become a thing)

Ring of Honor has the best in ring talent out of any American promotion
I'm the complete opposite. I don't care how good the in ring product is if the characters and storylines are boring. That's why I can praise a guy like Eddie Guerraro but never liked Chris Benoit. Benoit was a boring guy with no charisma. His in ring prowess just didn't matter to me because of that. Eddie was the best of both worlds. He was an entertaining character, which made me more interested in his in ring work.

Wrestling isn't a real sport. It's sports entertainment, and if the entertainment isn't there then I just don't care. I don't tune in just to see great athletes. I could watch real sports for that.
Exactly this. I am not sure how people enjoy a fake punch or a non-suffocating headlock. I used to love wrestling, I stopped watching when I realized it was fake. I came back to watch some around 10 years later, it was fun too look at some of the stuff but now I just can't. The main source of entertainment to me is the story and characters. Even in ring action should be related to that. It was fun seeing Ric Flair beg on his knees no to be punched then he does the eye poking. It was fun to see Jeff Jarrett point to his head after executing a move to show how smart he is. Even the Undertaker stands up after being on the ground like a zombie waking up from its grave. It all adds to the story.

But watching a guy in a blue shorts vs a guy in a black trousers executing faking suplexes and staged top rope jumps so no one gets hurt, how is that fun? Even worse, back in the day a wrestler was willing to take a hit for the crowd. Today, the moves are as fake as possible. I do not believe they even touch each other throwing punches. TNA uses Styrofoam for breaking tables? Who will believe that in the era of the internet.

I watch '97 Nitro now and its much fun than the crap wrestilng on TV today. I am not sure why there are wrestling fans on the adult part. I still can understand kids.

How was Summer Slam btw, I haven't seen it.
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

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RCBH928 wrote: Exactly this. I am not sure how people enjoy a fake punch or a non-suffocating headlock.
Yeah, that stuff is boring. But there is a huge difference between that and moves like this
Which is why I see stuff like Ring of Honor as more intresting as WWE. In ROH, Japan, Mexico etc matches are fast paced and you see all kinds of awesome moves all the time. If I wanted to see strangling and punches and kicks I could watch MMA. I want to see moves that you will never see in a real fight like springboard twisting sunsetflip power bomb
RCBH928 wrote: I do not believe they even touch each other throwing punches.
If you wanna see hard hitting wrestling (guys kicking each others asses for real), watch Japanese wrestling. The way I see it, there's not much point in guys like Hardcore Holly kicking peoples asses for real in the ring. Wrestling moves should be as safe as possible, but looking legit is equally important. That's also the reason why you need good timing and ring psychology, so it never looks like there's any kind of fakeness or team work going on (guys helping their opponent to execute a move on them, not doing anything when they could defend themselves etc).
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

Post by RCBH928 »

I agree with you , the japanese stuff is more of that should be happening. At least that "looks" real yet in the end we all know its fake. For the magic to happen, it has to be combined with a good story. Maybe it does in Japan, but since I do not understand Japanese I will have to stick to English speakers. Maybe Japan could have their own promotion in the USA
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

Post by TheSSNintendo »

So after attending a TNA live event last month, I started somewhat getting back into TNA and watching their Impact shows. Back in '04, they started on FSN, and I would watch them but somehow managed to fall behind on the shows. Should I start with '04 (which I did last night on YouTube) or start with 2005/2006, which I can find on XBox or Amazon?
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Re: The Wrestling Thread

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I'd recommend skipping that era almost completely, unless you're really into watching "The Jeff Jarrett Show."
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