Naughty Dog

[BogusMeatFactory]

I feel that storytelling is their weak suit.

Really? The Uncharted games and The Last of Us have been roundly praised because of their storytelling...

I can not stress how bad the uncharted storytelling is. It is a copy paste for at least the first two games.

"Big bad guy is bad because we say he is bad. I mean look at how many people he has killed...man that guy is bad! Good guy is good because he is Han Solo and Indiana Jones' baby... I mean he has snarky comebacks he must be good. Let's go to the place where the mysterious object is. It's not there! There are some people who had the mysterious object here before and they all died. There is a clue about the mysterious object's real purpose with the dead people. We jet set to numerous places, trailing the bad guy who is ripping everything apart to find the mysterious object until we find the supernatural creatures involved with the mysterious object. Bad guy gets the mysterious object and you see what it can do. You fight the bad guy."

Which game am I talking about?

I can't vouch for Last of Us. It is heralded for it's storytelling. I want to play it, because, overall, I have enjoyed the Uncharted games and I feel it would be right up my alley. They make solid games, but their storytelling with Uncharted is very generic.

[dsheinem]

I can not stress how bad the uncharted storytelling is. It is a copy paste for at least the first two games.

The first game takes a poor left turn in the last act, but otherwise I think - for games - the storytelling in the Uncharted series is much better than normal. The voice acting is good, the characters have some depth, the stories have that "pulpy" feel that Indiana Jones movies have, etc. They aren't great pieces of literature or anything, but they are more than competent and, coupled with cinematic presentation and production, stand out from other games (especially in the genre).

[BogusMeatFactory]

I can not stress how bad the uncharted storytelling is. It is a copy paste for at least the first two games.

The first game takes a poor left turn in the last act, but otherwise I think - for games - the storytelling in the Uncharted series is much better than normal. The voice acting is good, the characters have some depth, the stories have that "pulpy" feel that Indiana Jones movies have, etc. They aren't great pieces of literature or anything, but they are more than competent and, coupled with cinematic presentation and production, stand out from other games (especially in the genre).

I won't argue on the cinematic presentation and production. They give you a definite sense of environment. They really do create very awe-inspiring visuals that draw you in and knowing that you will have to usually climb those environments makes it all the better. They nailed presentation down and I think that is where people really like the games for that. They can paint a pretty climbable picture.

Yes the dialog is witty and engaging, but it seemed to be wit for wit's sake. They wanted a Han Solo, they wanted a Mal, but there is zero history on the character to make you understand why they are like that, they just are. There are a lot of, "Just Because," in the game which is why the storytelling falters.

Why does he love Elena? "Just Because." It implies that something went wrong between the two in the past, but that is as far as it goes.

I agree though on one thing. I want more Indiana Jones in the world and this is as close as I will get and I can take it wholeheartedly. I make it sound like the games are horrible, but they aren't. They are a lot of fun and a cool experience. They could do better, but can't we all?

[Menegrothx]

I think Gamerforlife and I both A) post too much and B) have been here too long, because this is like the 5th thread today where I am reminded of a previous debate we had. Anyway, here it is:

http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopi ... 70#p709170

and

http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopi ... 38#p709438

and then onto the next few pages

"I get don't think Crash was any more/less "original" or had more/less "heart" than any of their IPs since. It too just combined things that were popular at the time (fuzzy mascots with attitude, mad scientists, shifting traditional 2D gameplay to 3D, etc.)"
Show me another 3D platformer that uses linear, narrow tube like levels, rather than "go anywhere" type of free roaming level design that emphasizes exploration rather than tight, well designed levels that is customary to most 3D platformers.
There's Super Magnetic Neo, Scooby Doo and Lilo&Stich on the PS1, and you could make the argument that some of the segments in Sonic Adventure resembled Crash Bandicoot in level design. All of those came years after Crash Bandicoot.
Either you are know of some obscure 3D platformers I'm not aware of (even after intentionally trying to find games that copy gameplay from Crash Bandicoot), or you have no clue what you're talking about. Given that you just said in another thread that there isn't any need for more Mega Man games, my guess is that you're not a very big platformer fan.

[dsheinem]

I think Gamerforlife and I both A) post too much and B) have been here too long, because this is like the 5th thread today where I am reminded of a previous debate we had. Anyway, here it is:

http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopi ... 70#p709170

and

http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopi ... 38#p709438

and then onto the next few pages

"I get don't think Crash was any more/less "original" or had more/less "heart" than any of their IPs since. It too just combined things that were popular at the time (fuzzy mascots with attitude, mad scientists, shifting traditional 2D gameplay to 3D, etc.)"
Show me another 3D platformer that uses linear, narrow tube like levels, rather than "go anywhere" type of free roaming level design that emphasizes exploration rather than tight, well designed levels that is customary to most 3D platformers.
There's Super Magnetic Neo, Scooby Doo and Lilo&Stich on the PS1, and you could make the argument that some of the segments in Sonic Adventure resembled Crash Bandicoot in level design. All of those came years after Crash Bandicoot.
Either you are know of some obscure 3D platformers I'm not aware of (even after intentionally trying to find games that copy gameplay from Crash Bandicoot), or you have no clue what you're talking about. Given that you just said in another thread that there isn't any need for more Mega Man games, my guess is that you're not a very big platformer fan.

I enjoy a good platformer!

[Menegrothx]

I wouldn't call the bonus stages in Sonic 2 and Knuckles Chaotix like Crash Bandicoot. You don't control your movement, there's no attack, slide nor enemies.

[dsheinem]

I wouldn't call the bonus stages in Sonic 2 and Knuckles Chaotix like Crash Bandicoot. You don't control your movement, there's no attack, slide nor enemies.

I dunno. Crash always seemed like a natural evolution of something like the DKC series or other top platformers from the previous gen in that it was a game that borrowed pretty heavily from 3D experiments, character experiments, "attitude" experiments, etc. from the previous generation.

And yes, the 3D "tube like levels" existed in many other genres prior to Crash and it also existed (to the extent it could) in platformers in games like Sonic 2 and 3 (special stages), or even in some sections of Jumping Flash, and so putting a "tube like level" into a platformer wasn't some groundbreaking move nor was it really a "first". In Crash those elements were refined and the game is largely better than its influences, but these characteristics have marked almost every Naughty Dog game made (which is my larger point).

[Menegrothx]

And yes, the 3D "tube like levels" existed in many other genres prior to Crash and it also existed (to the extent it could) in platformers in games like Sonic 2 and 3 (special stages), or even in some sections of Jumping Flash, and so putting a "tube like level" into a platformer wasn't some groundbreaking move nor was it really a "first". In Crash those elements were refined and the game is largely better than its influences, but these characteristics have marked almost every Naughty Dog game made (which is my larger point).

The Sonic levels don't really compare because they were a gimmicky bonus level that didn't utilize the games' core gameplay mechanics

I have no idea how you could see Jumping Flash as similar. The levels are huge because of your triple jump. There are some what cramped indoor sections in couple of levels, but those are nothing like Crash from design/gameplay POV and generally the worst designed parts of Jumping Flash 1&2.

[dsheinem]

And yes, the 3D "tube like levels" existed in many other genres prior to Crash and it also existed (to the extent it could) in platformers in games like Sonic 2 and 3 (special stages), or even in some sections of Jumping Flash, and so putting a "tube like level" into a platformer wasn't some groundbreaking move nor was it really a "first". In Crash those elements were refined and the game is largely better than its influences, but these characteristics have marked almost every Naughty Dog game made (which is my larger point).

The Sonic levels don't really compare because they were a gimmicky bonus level that didn't utilize the games' core gameplay mechanics

I have no idea how you could see Jumping Flash as similar. The levels are huge because of your triple jump. There are some what cramped indoor sections in couple of levels, but those are nothing like Crash from design/gameplay POV and generally the worst designed parts of Jumping Flash 1&2.

Again, I just see the roots of what Naughty Dog did in Crash in bits and pieces of plenty of previous games - not all of which are in the platforming genre. Crash took a lot of elements and refined them to create something more functional, fluid, and fun. But ND weren't bringing entirely new design concepts to the table.

[AppleQueso]

In the earliest stages of its development Crash was referred to among the devs as "Sonic's Ass"

So...