Shin Megami Tensei IV

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noiseredux
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Re: Shin Megami Tensei IV

Post by noiseredux »

dsheinem wrote: I thought RE4 was one of your all time favorite games,
Where the heck did you get that from? I think it's a really good RE game. It and the remake of one would be my favorites of the handful I have played. And I like the way it seems to reference Dagon. But I'd never call it one of my all time favorite games.

Bioshock Infinite gets talked about as a GOTY.


ah yeah I forgot about that one. That looks good, but I don't see it getting played this year as I still haven't played the first two.
Yeah, yeah, you're so non-mainstream :lol:
Wasn't trying to say I'm non-mainstream. And I admitted that both of those had much critical acclaim. But was just pointing out that my favorite games of the last two years were more niche titles. Things I'd gravitate towards anyway. Much like the stack of 2013 games I've actually played in 2013. Games that I'm more likely to buy when they first come out are games I'm into (shmups, fighters, JRPG's, etc) and games like TLOU are generally the sort of games that I might look into a couple years after release when they're in a bargain bin (like what happened with Dead Island... and like I said, was still disappointed).
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Re: Shin Megami Tensei IV

Post by Menegrothx »

True. But Shadowrun and Fire Emblem are both classified strategy RPGs. In SR you create your own character, choose a race, gender and class and then as the game progresses you can spend experience points leveling up whatever skills you want, where as in FE you're stuck with existing characters and you can only choose which weapon you want to equip on them (most classes only have 1 or 2 weapon types, where as in SR you can put points to spells, summoning, adept skills, decking, pistols, shotguns, SMGs, rifles, melee weapons, thrown weapons etc and be able to use everything, so you need to consider more carefully what to equip on your character) and level them to a different class every 10 levels if you want. In FE skills are picked automatically and you can't use them your self, they trigger automatically, unless they are spells. Your only choices really are which characters to group together, and should you level up your priest to be a pure healing priest, a warrior priest, or a mage priest etc. Where as in SR you don't have a "buddy leveling system" like that and your party is only made up of 2/3/4 people, so you don't create battle partners, although you can divide the group to a fighter+buffer and a fighter+buffer.
dsheinem wrote: I thought RE4 was one of your all time favorite games, which is a mix of 3rd person action and zombies. TLOU would fit that basic description, but it also does so much more with the genre...
I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here: watch errant signal's last of us review if you want to decide whether it's up your alley or not. He summed up the game "The Last of Us: Pretty good movie, pretty okay game. Pretty weirdly mishmashed result that throws you back and forth between the two. You could approximate the experience by watching The Walking Dead and then switching to Tomb Raider or Uncharted every 5 minutes. Does that make for an overall good game? I don't really know."

Though I think Bioshock Infinite and TLOU are overhyped, they are still way more mature and intelligent than most mainstream games and you should support that. But where as with Bioshock Infinite I could fall back on the fact that System Shock 2 and Bioshock were better, there's not much to go on when it comes to zombie games. The Walking Dead I guess, but at least all the shock games were FPS(+RPG in SS2's case) so you could more easily compare them to each other, but Walking Dead is a point&click adventure game, a genre that is one of the strongest (if not the THE strongest) when it comes to good writing and stories in video games, so it's a bit unfair to compare that to a 3rd person action game. As far as action game with zombies go, TLOU is the most ambitious.
noiseredux wrote:
Bioshock Infinite gets talked about as a GOTY.


ah yeah I forgot about that one. That looks good, but I don't see it getting played this year as I still haven't played the first two.
System Shock 2 has the best (and by far the most challenging) gameplay. Bioshock has better gameplay than Bioshock Infinite. All games have not so good gunplay. System Shock 2 makes up for it with RPG and survival horror elements and the level of strategy and depth the game has, Bioshock somewhat makes up for it with cool, tactical plasmids. Bioshock Infinite falls short on this department.
Bioshock and Bioshock Infinite are tied for which has the best art direction, it's a matter of taste really (underwater city vs city in the skies)
System Shock 2, Bioshock and Bioshock Infinite are pretty much tied on the story department. SS2 story=BS story, BSI tells a unique story.Bioshock (and SS2) however are better at relating the gameplay&environment to the story
Infinite is the most linear as far as level design goes. All the remnants of RPG elements from System Shock that Bioshock had, have been removed from Infinite.

System Shock is too oldschool and hardcore for most people. Bioshock 2 improved the gameplay of Bioshock, but had a weaker story, it's really just more polished version of BS1, but a bad sequel as far as ambitions go.

If you're unfamiliar with the series and have limited time to play games, go for the first Bioshock and System Shock 2. SS2 for gameplay, BS for art and visuals. Infinite is only "greatest FPS evar" if you're not familiar with those two (among other games).
noiseredux wrote:games like TLOU are generally the sort of games that I might look into a couple years after release when they're in a bargain bin (like what happened with Dead Island... and like I said, was still disappointed).
Don't compare Last of Us to Dead Island. They are not in the same league.
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Re: Shin Megami Tensei IV

Post by marlowe221 »

Valkyrie-Favor wrote:As far as I can tell, this is how Megaten games work:

Read some bizarre dialogue, read a tutorial, enter first dungeon, limp out the first dungeon with one character with 4 HP left.

Read some bizarre dialogue, recruit demons to your party, fuse demons into different demons, explore a dungeon, fight a boss, limp out with one character with 10 HP left.

SMTIV is like any other JRPG you've played, but more and faster and harder. In dungeons, it's all about the long game. You plan carefully, making sure you have enough resources to get through and defeat the boss. The individual encounters are more complex and challenging, and there's an interesting mechanic that lets you earn more turns when you get a critical hit.

Demon fusion and skill inheritance take the place of standard, boring equipment upgrades.
Thanks for the response. It was funny and informative.

The game sounds pretty good and the folks who love this series seem to REALLY love this series. I am playing through EOIV right now and I am loving it and thought I might need to give some other Atlus titles a chance.

I like some JRPGs - the question is does the story actually make sense or is it a convoluted mess that you would never be able to repeat to another person?
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Re: Shin Megami Tensei IV

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Menegrothx wrote:I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here: watch errant signal's last of us review if you want to decide whether it's up your alley or not. He summed up the game "The Last of Us: Pretty good movie, pretty okay game. Pretty weirdly mishmashed result that throws you back and forth between the two. You could approximate the experience by watching The Walking Dead and then switching to Tomb Raider or Uncharted every 5 minutes. Does that make for an overall good game? I don't really know."
The gameplay in The Last of Us is a great refinement on Uncharted adds stealth in what I thought was a great way. I don't see how this game mishmashes between movie and game at all, it does it very elegantly.
Menegrothx wrote:Bioshock has better gameplay than Bioshock Infinite. All games have not so good gunplay. ... Bioshock Infinite falls short on this department.
Totally disagree I thought each successive Bioshock game improved in the gameplay/combat arena and I felt that it was best in Infinite.
Menegrothx wrote:Don't compare Last of Us to Dead Island. They are not in the same league.
This I agree with, although I thought that the few minutes I've played of Dead Island were just fine.
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Re: Shin Megami Tensei IV

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Menegrothx wrote: Don't compare Last of Us to Dead Island. They are not in the same league.
I'm not comparing the two games. I'm comparing my interest in them. I'm sure they're very different games. But they're both games that I wouldn't bother picking up soon after they're released, unlike a game in a genre that I'm really into, which was the point I was making.
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Re: Shin Megami Tensei IV

Post by Menegrothx »

marlowe221 wrote: I like some JRPGs - the question is does the story actually make sense or is it a convoluted mess that you would never be able to repeat to another person?
Well Persona 4, a more lighthearted and story driven spin off title to the Shin Megami Tensei series has possibly the best JRPG&console RPG story of all time. I haven't played SMT IV yet (hasn't been released in EU), but generally SMT games have a more minimalistic story and a dark/serious/mysterious tone with little to no "anime BS". Might have some stuff that doesn't make sense because the games are all about demons, gods, darkness&light, cyberpunk and stuff like that. Atleast it shouldn't get too convoluted. The games can be at tiems "trippy" and mysterious (ie you don't understand what's going on around you) in a good way.

SMT is basically a series that many hardcore RPG fans who only like pen&paper and oldschool WRPGs love (or atleast like/tolerate), even if they hate all other JRPGs besides hardcore dungeon crawlers (like EO and Dark Spire) and possibly the classics. It's so different from all the other popular JRPG series. Especially SMT: Nocturne/Lucifer's Call (SMT 3) is respected on sites like RPGcodex
noiseredux wrote:
Menegrothx wrote: Don't compare Last of Us to Dead Island. They are not in the same league.
I'm not comparing the two games. I'm comparing my interest in them. I'm sure they're very different games. But they're both games that I wouldn't bother picking up soon after they're released, unlike a game in a genre that I'm really into, which was the point I was making.
Oh, that's good. Dead Island is a mindless hack n slash with some embarrassingly bad writing, and TLOU like I said is the most ambitious zombie game around, if you don't count Walking Dead and some of the indy roguelikes like Cataclysm - Dark Days Ahead.
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Re: Shin Megami Tensei IV

Post by ZenErik »

Persona 4? I don't like Persona 4's story at all. It's pretty monotonous for 75% of it. Save the person. Rinse. Repeat. Great characters but story??? Nope.
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Re: Shin Megami Tensei IV

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Stark wrote:
Menegrothx wrote:I'm gonna play the devil's advocate here: watch errant signal's last of us review if you want to decide whether it's up your alley or not. He summed up the game "The Last of Us: Pretty good movie, pretty okay game. Pretty weirdly mishmashed result that throws you back and forth between the two. You could approximate the experience by watching The Walking Dead and then switching to Tomb Raider or Uncharted every 5 minutes. Does that make for an overall good game? I don't really know."
The gameplay in The Last of Us is a great refinement on Uncharted adds stealth in what I thought was a great way. I don't see how this game mishmashes between movie and game at all, it does it very elegantly.
Menegrothx wrote:Bioshock has better gameplay than Bioshock Infinite. All games have not so good gunplay. ... Bioshock Infinite falls short on this department.
Totally disagree I thought each successive Bioshock game improved in the gameplay/combat arena and I felt that it was best in Infinite.
Menegrothx wrote:Don't compare Last of Us to Dead Island. They are not in the same league.
This I agree with, although I thought that the few minutes I've played of Dead Island were just fine.

I pretty much agree with Stark on all this. We see the Shock games very differently, Menegrothx.
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Re: Shin Megami Tensei IV

Post by Menegrothx »

ZenErik wrote:Persona 4? I don't like Persona 4's story at all. It's pretty monotonous for 75% of it. Save the person. Rinse. Repeat. Great characters but story??? Nope.
It's an interesting, well written mystery right till the end. And it's not convoluted with Gods that appear out of nowhere, bad guys whose ultimate motivation is destroying the whole universe to save mankind from itself and stuff like that. You have a clear motivation and goal through out the game and the story never looses focus, but there are interesting twists and turns throughout the game. Some people like to say that the original Xenogears is the Planescape: Torment of JRPGs but I like to think that it's Persona 4. But then again, my memories of Xenogears are kind of hazy so my memory might not serve me correctly.
Oh and atleast the dungeons reflect the personalities of the kidnapped people in P4. There's even some Silent Hill type symbolism going on with the boss design.
Compare P4 to P3 and you'll see how good it is. "There's a tower. Let's climb it" 50 hours later... "Oh shit there's a God who wants to destroy everything. Now we really have a motivation to climb all the way up"

What do you consider to be the best JRPG story of all time then? I'm curious, you've probably played more of them than me so I'm always open to suggestions. But from what I've read on the internet, it seems that the general consensus is that P4 is one of the best written JRPG stories.
dsheinem wrote: I pretty much agree with Stark on all this. We see the Shock games very differently, Menegrothx.
It's like this
System Shock=Metroid Prime
Bioshock=Half Life
Both highly rated and respected games. First one focuses more on gameplay, exploration, and the player figuring out stuff on his/her own, learning new skills with out any guidance or tips from the game and using those skills to unlock new areas and harder challenges (aka oldschool game design). The second is more linear and cinematic, with out the use of actual cutscenes. And less punishing.

SS2 doesn't have the sort of "political message" that Bioshock has, but the story of the game still has underlying "philosophical" themes. SS2 is generic scifi horror while Bioshock has a highly unique art style and appears on the surface to have more "depth" and meaning to it's story, but if you analyze the story of SS2 and really listen to all the information you've given, you can see that the storyline of System Shock 2 is intelligent in the same way the storyline of Bioshock is, it just doesn't have the kind of punchline "message" at the end
in other words the big reveal, "would you kindly", where as the big plot twist in SS2 was Polito=Shodan
^Don't read this if you haven't played the games noiseredux :mrgreen:
I'm not gonna go into detail in this post why, but many professional game developers adore System Shock 2 because of how well the gameplay mechanics, levels and the overall flow of the game have been designed: it's one of those rare games that manages to be hard in the long run, and constantly keeping the player on the edge, rather than having cheap challenge that can be avoided by save state using (tricky platforming sections and stuff like that) or having the difficulty lower over time as your character becomes more powerful.
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Re: Shin Megami Tensei IV

Post by ZenErik »

I don't recall any interesting twists in P4. But it's still a favorite of mine. And I liked P3's story better from the 80 hours I played...Never finished it. In fact, replaying it now. P3P on maniac.

To be honest, I don't really consider JRPGs in general to have particularly great stories. Despite being probably my favorite genre. So it's really hard for me to call one 'the best'. Plus my memory is pretty poor. I'm generally bad at recalling what happens in a given story after the fact, haha. But as for favorite JRPGs, that list is changing all the time. I've only recently become a big Atlus fan. Back when I originally tried Nocturne and Persona 3 I didn't know anything about SMT.

The only JRPGs I've ever replayed are FFVII, FFVIII, FFIX, Lunar: SSSC, Persona 3 (well, in the process of). And I do expect to replay P4 eventually on a higher difficulty. Normal was too easy.

For most likable character casts I'd put P4 and Lunar up there as candidates for favorites.
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