Metal Heads Assemble!!

[BurningDoom]

AC/DC and Guns N Roses were never metal to begin with. They're both great bands (well AC/DC is a great band, GNR basically just put out one great album) and appealed to metal fans on some level, sure, but come on here. They're pretty glaringly straight up hard rock.

Bullshit. Rock is bands like Foreigner, Journey, U2, and Styx. They aren't the same as that, at all. I know you're all about the Black Metal and all and it doesn't come close to the heaviness of Black Metal, but they're still metal. You may not enjoy hair metal, I know it's pretty niche at this point in time and mostly looked down upon by most metal fans (which is a shame, there's some great hair metal out there), but it's still metal nonetheless no matter you're opinion of it. To deny Slash or Angus Young's guitar-work as nothing more than plain-ole rock is criminal.

Regardless of what you feel about those two bands, though, in the 80s metal was undeniably mainstream. Which was the point to begin with.

[Menegrothx]

Not very relevant in any level, but King Diamond (the vocalist of KD/Mercyful Fate) resides in Dallas, even though he's from Denmark originally

I've heard a lot of stories about bands touring the US. Insanely low turnouts, etc. It's one of the big reasons Celtic Frost broke up actually.

I saw a video of Wintersun in Phoenix, looked like they were playing in a bar and had an audience of 60 people
Yall need to take example of Brazil
I hear Mexico, Chile and Argentina also have great big crowds, but I'm not sure if that's true or not.
Though I'm not one to judge as I never go to gigs myself

You may not enjoy hair metal, I know it's pretty niche at this point in time and mostly looked down upon by most metal fans (which is a shame, there's some great hair metal out there), but it's still metal nonetheless no matter you're opinion of it.

This is kinda rad imo. I liked most of the stuff on V-Rock in GTA Vice City&Vice City Stories. Come on feel the noise, I wanna rock and whatnot.

[AppleQueso]

AC/DC and Guns N Roses were never metal to begin with. They're both great bands (well AC/DC is a great band, GNR basically just put out one great album) and appealed to metal fans on some level, sure, but come on here. They're pretty glaringly straight up hard rock.

Bullshit. Rock is bands like Foreigner, Journey, U2, and Styx. They aren't the same as that, at all. I know you're all about the Black Metal and all and it doesn't come close to the heaviness of Black Metal, but they're still metal. You may not enjoy hair metal, I know it's pretty niche at this point in time and mostly looked down upon by most metal fans (which is a shame, there's some great hair metal out there), but it's still metal nonetheless no matter you're opinion of it. To deny Slash or Angus Young's guitar-work as nothing more than plain-ole rock is criminal.

Regardless of what you feel about those two bands, though, in the 80s metal was undeniably mainstream. Which was the point to begin with.

"I know you're all about the Black Metal and all and it doesn't come close to the heaviness of Black Metal, but they're still metal." Did you completely miss my small rant about Judas Priest or something?

If you think "heaviness" (which is relative anyway) has anything to do with that, I don't know what to tell you.

You make some weird assumptions there though, namely the fact that apparently you think that "plain-ole rock" (I said "hard rock" anyway) can't have great guitarists and amazing guitar work. Van Halen, anyone? Calling those bands "hard rock" wasn't a value judgment either. I never once said AC/DC wasn't a great band.

"Metal" might've been mainstream in the 80s, but the biggest bands that were getting called that were about as metal as a bag of socks. I could give you something like WASP or Motley Crue, but Poison?, Bon Jovi? Yeaaaaaaah no.

[BurningDoom]

AC/DC and Guns N Roses were never metal to begin with. They're both great bands (well AC/DC is a great band, GNR basically just put out one great album) and appealed to metal fans on some level, sure, but come on here. They're pretty glaringly straight up hard rock.

Bullshit. Rock is bands like Foreigner, Journey, U2, and Styx. They aren't the same as that, at all. I know you're all about the Black Metal and all and it doesn't come close to the heaviness of Black Metal, but they're still metal. You may not enjoy hair metal, I know it's pretty niche at this point in time and mostly looked down upon by most metal fans (which is a shame, there's some great hair metal out there), but it's still metal nonetheless no matter you're opinion of it. To deny Slash or Angus Young's guitar-work as nothing more than plain-ole rock is criminal.

Regardless of what you feel about those two bands, though, in the 80s metal was undeniably mainstream. Which was the point to begin with.

"I know you're all about the Black Metal and all and it doesn't come close to the heaviness of Black Metal, but they're still metal." Did you completely miss my small rant about Judas Priest or something?

If you think "heaviness" (which is relative anyway) has anything to do with that, I don't know what to tell you.

You make some weird assumptions there though, namely the fact that apparently you think that "plain-ole rock" (I said "hard rock" anyway) can't have great guitarists and amazing guitar work. Van Halen, anyone? Calling those bands "hard rock" wasn't a value judgment either. I never once said AC/DC wasn't a great band.

"Metal" might've been mainstream in the 80s, but the biggest bands that were getting called that were about as metal as a bag of socks. I could give you something like WASP or Motley Crue, but Poison?, Bon Jovi? Yeaaaaaaah no.

Well yeah, Bon Jovi and Poison were definetly poser bands just doing it for the chicks. But AC/DC and GNR, not so much. And to name some others: Dio, Motley Crue, W.A.S.P., Motorhead, Queensryche, Megadeth, Skid Row, Iron Maiden. Metal was the world's most popular music in the 80s, this isn't even a debate.

Metal is an attitude, a lifestyle. It's a fuck the world attitude complimented with (hopefully) great guitars, drums, and vocals.

And I never said there can't be great guitar-work outside of metal. I said Slash and Angus Young's guitar-work is metal, and without a shadow of a doubt both men are shredding machines.

[brunoafh]

I said Slash and Angus Young's guitar-work is metal

It's not though, it is considered a hard rock play style. They mostly play in line with other rock guitarists of the era and stick with basic major pentatonic stuff. They are certainly notable among the lead guitarists of this playstyle, but it's certainly not what would be considered metal by today's standards, and really it wasn't then, either. There is more to classifying a playstyle than shredding (which they don't really do either) or levels of virtuosity. Skill is largely irrelevant, it's the techniques and commonly used scales that define it really.

[AppleQueso]

I said Slash and Angus Young's guitar-work is metal

It's not though, it is considered a hard rock play style. They mostly play in line with other rock guitarists of the era and stick with basic major pentatonic stuff. They are certainly notable among the lead guitarists of this playstyle, but it's certainly not what would be considered metal by today's standards, and really it wasn't then, either. There is more to classifying a playstyle than shredding (which they don't really do either) or levels of virtuosity. Skill is largely irrelevant, it's the techniques and commonly used scales that define it really.

This, yes.

You can go on and on about "attitude" and "lifestyle" and such, but Metal is first and foremost a genre of music, defined by musical ideas. Brunoafh here is getting to the core of it a lot better than I could.

Frankly though, I'm surprised it needs to be explained at all. The difference in sound has always seemed pretty obvious to me.

It seems, BurningDoom, that you consider any guitar-driven band with a hard-edged sound and an ambiguous "fuck the world" attitude to be "metal," without any real consideration for things like playstyles or the actual musical approach. The problem is that by your definition, not only is most hard rock "metal", but so is most punk. This viewpoint is so broad that it makes the term "metal" pretty much useless.

[BurningDoom]

I said Slash and Angus Young's guitar-work is metal

It's not though, it is considered a hard rock play style. They mostly play in line with other rock guitarists of the era and stick with basic major pentatonic stuff. They are certainly notable among the lead guitarists of this playstyle, but it's certainly not what would be considered metal by today's standards, and really it wasn't then, either. There is more to classifying a playstyle than shredding (which they don't really do either) or levels of virtuosity. Skill is largely irrelevant, it's the techniques and commonly used scales that define it really.

This, yes.

You can go on and on about "attitude" and "lifestyle" and such, but Metal is first and foremost a genre of music, defined by musical ideas. Brunoafh here is getting to the core of it a lot better than I could.

Frankly though, I'm surprised it needs to be explained at all. The difference in sound has always seemed pretty obvious to me.

It seems, BurningDoom, that you consider any guitar-driven band with a hard-edged sound and an ambiguous "fuck the world" attitude to be "metal," without any real consideration for things like playstyles or the actual musical approach. The problem is that by your definition, not only is most hard rock "metal", but so is most punk. This viewpoint is so broad that it makes the term "metal" pretty much useless.

No, I still stand by what I said. GNR is nowhere near Rock. Puddle of Mudd, Nickelback, Styx, Foreigner, Journey, etc. That's rock. GNR wipes the floor with those likes in terms of heaviness and guitar riffs.

And Wikipedia seems to agree with both of us, as they have them labeled as both Hard Rock and Heavy Metal. It seems I have to concede on AC/DC, though, as they aren't labeled as Heavy Metal.

But again, my main point is being missed here, which was that the in the 80s metal was without a doubt mainstream. Even if you don't count AC/DC or GNR, there are still plenty of big, successful metal bands in the era that were mainstream.

[AppleQueso]

No, I still stand by what I said. GNR is nowhere near Rock. Puddle of Mudd, Nickelback, Styx, Foreigner, Journey, etc. That's rock. GNR wipes the floor with those likes in terms of heaviness and guitar riffs.

And Wikipedia seems to agree with both of us, as they have them labeled as both Hard Rock and Heavy Metal. It seems I have to concede on AC/DC, though, as they aren't labeled as Heavy Metal.

It doesn't really have to do with heaviness or even how good the riffs are, it's the kind of riffs they're playing. There's some metal stylings sprinkled in the riffs here and there, and they are certainly great riffs, but if you ask me the music on Appetite sways away from the metal end of this pendulum.

Really it's whatever though. You could call GNR a borderline band that could go either way depending on who you ask, and honestly I took more issue with AC/DC being classified as metal than them. AC/DC is straight up definitive hard rock. Calling them metal denies hard rock one of its greatest bands.

I really don't take Wikipedia very seriously when it comes to this sort of thing (they don't consider Brutal Death Metal to be a valid genre or even a valid stylistic variation for some reason, despite pretty much everybody in the metal community having a consensus on what it is and what it sounds like.) but whatever.

But again, my main point is being missed here, which was that the in the 80s metal was without a doubt mainstream. Even if you don't count AC/DC or GNR, there are still plenty of big, successful metal bands in the era that were mainstream.

I said the success was the largely the result of the underground scene "bubbling over," and even that was me simply explaining the Forlorn that metal is far from currently "dying." Even in the 80s, while certain bands were enjoying wild success, the underground was still booming with new and exciting things, and was every bit as healthy then as it was through the 90s and still is today.

Did you think I was saying "all metal in the 80s was underground" or something? Because I didn't say that. I said a lot of the most exciting stuff was underground.

[BoneSnapDeez]

Did you think I was saying "all metal in the 80s was underground" or something? Because I didn't say that. I said a lot of the most exciting stuff was underground.

Yup... Like most thrash, first-wave black metal, all death metal, etc...

[AppleQueso]

Did you think I was saying "all metal in the 80s was underground" or something? Because I didn't say that. I said a lot of the most exciting stuff was underground.

Yup... Like most thrash, first-wave black metal, all death metal, etc...

...and grindcore and a lot of power metal as well.