If you wanna see Bethesda hate, try RPG CodexJmustang1968 wrote:Ehh I would have to disagree here. Bethesda RPGs are mostly well regarded. This is one of the few places on the internet I have visited where they aren't as well liked.brunoafh wrote:Bethesda is the Idea Factory of WRPGs.BoringSupreez wrote:So basically, don't start with Bethesda is what you're saying.
Do You Have Any Unpopular Gaming Opinions?
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Menegrothx
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Re: Do You Have Any Unpopular Gaming Opinions?
My WTB thread (Sega CD/Saturn games)
Also looking to buy: Ys III (TG-16 CD), Shadowrun (Genesis) Hori N64 mini pad and Slayer (3DO) in long box/just the long box
Also looking to buy: Ys III (TG-16 CD), Shadowrun (Genesis) Hori N64 mini pad and Slayer (3DO) in long box/just the long box
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Snatch1414
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Re: Do You Have Any Unpopular Gaming Opinions?
I love the old Sonics but too often you're stuck between running at full speed for the fun of it or walking to not miss anything, but then if you do that you're kind of missing what makes the games unique. That's been they're one big con for me.
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- Jmustang1968
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Re: Do You Have Any Unpopular Gaming Opinions?
I again disagree. I don't think they are 'more stupid'. I love the older games, but they couldnt do a lot of what the newer games can either.Menegrothx wrote:If you wanna see Bethesda hate, try RPG CodexJmustang1968 wrote:
Ehh I would have to disagree here. Bethesda RPGs are mostly well regarded. This is one of the few places on the internet I have visited where they aren't as well liked.Bethesda and modern Bioware games are mostly well regarded on forums where people don't do retro gaming (in other words most of the major ones). There's nothing wrong with those games but they don't live up to the standards of older games. Style over substance in order to attract a larger crowd. Though there's nothing new in the fact that generally more stupid games, movies and music sell better thanks to casual consumers. And it's not something unique to the WRPG genre, JRPGs too have the same problem.
I thoroughly loved ME series and Dragon Age Origins. I never beat DA the first time through, so I am currently replaying it now and am hooked all over again. These games have plenty of substance.
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- BoneSnapDeez
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Re: Do You Have Any Unpopular Gaming Opinions?
Dragon Age is awesome. The second game was disappointing.
Couldn't really get into Mass Effect 1 or 2 (I played 2 first - maybe I should try again in the correct order). Never bothered with the third one.
Couldn't really get into Mass Effect 1 or 2 (I played 2 first - maybe I should try again in the correct order). Never bothered with the third one.
Re: Do You Have Any Unpopular Gaming Opinions?
I'd say they're different, not necessarily better or worse. Considering how much more effort it is to include content in a modern game, and the sheer amount of it that some of these games have...I have a hard time saying style over substance.Menegrothx wrote: There's nothing wrong with those games but they don't live up to the standards of older games. Style over substance in order to attract a larger crowd. Though there's nothing new in the fact that generally more stupid games, movies and music sell better thanks to casual consumers. And it's not something unique to the WRPG genre, JRPGs too have the same problem.
While some are deliberately less esoteric in play mechanics, that's not necessarily a bad thing. Assuming the point is questing and role playing, not meticulously managing inventory and stat points.
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Menegrothx
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Re: Do You Have Any Unpopular Gaming Opinions?
Is the writing/story/dialogue less intelligent?
Are the gameplay mechanics lacking in depth?
Creating larger game worlds with more artificial content and shinier graphics & cutscenes while having inferioir writing and gameplay/RPG mechanics=style over substance. For example many people would argue that compared to 6, Final Fantasy 7 is style over substance. Although Bioshock is by no means a badly written game or a bad game, it's style over substance when compared to System Shock 2.
More common term is dumbing down, but that term itself does not entail graphical upgrades. If a RPG has to rely on aesthetics, sandbox exploration, mini games and other irrelevant content in order to make up for it's shortcomings in the writing&mechanics department, it's resorting to style over substance.
Smaller and shorter game with interesting characters, well written dialogue&story and a lot of depth, complexity&challenge in the gameplay, character/party creation and development department>A huge sprawling 250 hour timesink with repetitive, unchallenging combat, unmemorable characters, subpar writing and simplified RPG mechanics&character development.
Though there is room for both, I'm not saying that sandbox "singleplayer MMORPG" RPGs don't deserve to exist.
Are the gameplay mechanics lacking in depth?
Creating larger game worlds with more artificial content and shinier graphics & cutscenes while having inferioir writing and gameplay/RPG mechanics=style over substance. For example many people would argue that compared to 6, Final Fantasy 7 is style over substance. Although Bioshock is by no means a badly written game or a bad game, it's style over substance when compared to System Shock 2.
More common term is dumbing down, but that term itself does not entail graphical upgrades. If a RPG has to rely on aesthetics, sandbox exploration, mini games and other irrelevant content in order to make up for it's shortcomings in the writing&mechanics department, it's resorting to style over substance.
Smaller and shorter game with interesting characters, well written dialogue&story and a lot of depth, complexity&challenge in the gameplay, character/party creation and development department>A huge sprawling 250 hour timesink with repetitive, unchallenging combat, unmemorable characters, subpar writing and simplified RPG mechanics&character development.
Though there is room for both, I'm not saying that sandbox "singleplayer MMORPG" RPGs don't deserve to exist.
Indeed, they are not stupid games. I should say that the old games were more intelligent.Jmustang1968 wrote: I don't think they are 'more stupid'. I love the older games, but they couldnt do a lot of what the newer games can either.
My WTB thread (Sega CD/Saturn games)
Also looking to buy: Ys III (TG-16 CD), Shadowrun (Genesis) Hori N64 mini pad and Slayer (3DO) in long box/just the long box
Also looking to buy: Ys III (TG-16 CD), Shadowrun (Genesis) Hori N64 mini pad and Slayer (3DO) in long box/just the long box
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lisalover1
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Re: Do You Have Any Unpopular Gaming Opinions?
So far, I have tried the first 3 Ultimas, TES 3-5, Mass Effect, Fallout 3, and a couple others. I just can never seem to get into them. I need a good story to get me through a long game; something to give me a reason to play. From what I have seen, the story in most WRPGs is too sparse and inconsequential to let me have any sort of investment in the game. That doesn't make the games bad by any means, it just means that they're really not for me.
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ZeoDefender
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Re: Do You Have Any Unpopular Gaming Opinions?
The Genesis Sonic platformers are some of the greatest games of all time, but Sonic CD is a horrible, unplayable mess.
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Menegrothx
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Re: Do You Have Any Unpopular Gaming Opinions?
You're playing the wrong games if you want story.
Ultimas 1-3 were messing around. The series became more serious with the fourth game and Ultimas 4-7 are easily the most thoughtful and best written oldschool (pre 1997) RPGs and they still hold up - they're just so oldschool that they're not a good starting point unless you have balls of steel.
http://www.rpgfan.com/features/Top_20_R ... 90s/3.html
http://www.rpgfan.com/features/Top_10_B ... tten_RPGs/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=8869
http://www.complex.com/video-games/2011 ... -in-games/
(durr Resident Evil has better story than Xenogears or PS:T, fucking OOT as number one etc, yeah I might not agree with this list but it still confirms those RPG lists are saying, it has BG2, SS2, PS:T and Deus Ex on it)
This is all you need to know, though the inclusion of certain "new school" RPGs and the lack of oldschool RPGs is surprising in the RPG codex article, given that that's the site for angry elitist oldschool RPG gamers
So anyways, Planescape: Torment is the place to start from. Everywhere you go, it's praised as the best written RPG and the best written game of all time. If you like the adventure game Longest Journey (another game that's often praised as one of the best written video game stories), you'll like Planescape: Torment.
After you're done with Torment, you have few different choices where to go next:
1. Isometric games in done in the same style as Planescape
Fallout 1&2+Baldur's Gate 1&2: This is the FF6&Chrono Trigger duo of CRPGs.
If you want an alternative to those, or you're looking for more, there's Arcanum. Another isometric RPG. Not as much praised for it's writing as Fallout and Baldur's gate games, this game's strengths are it's unique steampunk world and the level of depth, choices and freedom in character creation and roleplaying.
Both Fallout 1 and 2 are equally great although different from each other, but Baldur's Gate 2 is a lot better than the first one. So you're getting a more uneven experience with the BG-series.
2. If you can tolerate more action heavy gameplay and first person view, there's the
trio of FPSRPGs
Deus Ex, Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines and System Shock 2.
All of these are quite heavy on combat, VTMB has the most social interaction and dialogue and you can talk your way out of fights. You'll read a lot of emails and listen to conversations and audio logs in Deus Ex and System Shock 2, so even though you're alone fighting most of the time, they still have a very strong narrative (and amazing stories). Deus Ex is often praised as the best game of all time thanks to it's plot (it's very Bioshock-esque, but it actually has more to say than Bioshock or Bioshock Infinite so I'd rate it as a more intelligent story because of that). System Shock 2 might be the least appealing to you out of those 3 games because it's a survival horror game and the plot is very scifi-y, but as a game it works best out of the three. And it has some deeper, symbolic conflicts going on it's story.
3. Anachronox
"Western JRPG"
With the exception of Vampire and Arcanum (more obscure), all of these games are lauded for their excellent writing and stories. That doesn't mean they're poorly written though, especially Vampire has some of the greatest characters and dialogue that I've seen in a RPG. If you can play through a modern Final Fantasy game, you won't have a problem with any of these games if you're looking for a good story, because they're all a lot better than any X-series Final Fantasy.
After you're done with that top 11 list, feel free to try modern or oldschool WRPGs.
Ultimas 1-3 were messing around. The series became more serious with the fourth game and Ultimas 4-7 are easily the most thoughtful and best written oldschool (pre 1997) RPGs and they still hold up - they're just so oldschool that they're not a good starting point unless you have balls of steel.
http://www.rpgfan.com/features/Top_20_R ... 90s/3.html
http://www.rpgfan.com/features/Top_10_B ... tten_RPGs/
http://www.rpgcodex.net/content.php?id=8869
http://www.complex.com/video-games/2011 ... -in-games/
(durr Resident Evil has better story than Xenogears or PS:T, fucking OOT as number one etc, yeah I might not agree with this list but it still confirms those RPG lists are saying, it has BG2, SS2, PS:T and Deus Ex on it)
This is all you need to know, though the inclusion of certain "new school" RPGs and the lack of oldschool RPGs is surprising in the RPG codex article, given that that's the site for angry elitist oldschool RPG gamers
So anyways, Planescape: Torment is the place to start from. Everywhere you go, it's praised as the best written RPG and the best written game of all time. If you like the adventure game Longest Journey (another game that's often praised as one of the best written video game stories), you'll like Planescape: Torment.
After you're done with Torment, you have few different choices where to go next:
1. Isometric games in done in the same style as Planescape
Fallout 1&2+Baldur's Gate 1&2: This is the FF6&Chrono Trigger duo of CRPGs.
If you want an alternative to those, or you're looking for more, there's Arcanum. Another isometric RPG. Not as much praised for it's writing as Fallout and Baldur's gate games, this game's strengths are it's unique steampunk world and the level of depth, choices and freedom in character creation and roleplaying.
Both Fallout 1 and 2 are equally great although different from each other, but Baldur's Gate 2 is a lot better than the first one. So you're getting a more uneven experience with the BG-series.
2. If you can tolerate more action heavy gameplay and first person view, there's the
trio of FPSRPGs
Deus Ex, Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines and System Shock 2.
All of these are quite heavy on combat, VTMB has the most social interaction and dialogue and you can talk your way out of fights. You'll read a lot of emails and listen to conversations and audio logs in Deus Ex and System Shock 2, so even though you're alone fighting most of the time, they still have a very strong narrative (and amazing stories). Deus Ex is often praised as the best game of all time thanks to it's plot (it's very Bioshock-esque, but it actually has more to say than Bioshock or Bioshock Infinite so I'd rate it as a more intelligent story because of that). System Shock 2 might be the least appealing to you out of those 3 games because it's a survival horror game and the plot is very scifi-y, but as a game it works best out of the three. And it has some deeper, symbolic conflicts going on it's story.
3. Anachronox
"Western JRPG"
With the exception of Vampire and Arcanum (more obscure), all of these games are lauded for their excellent writing and stories. That doesn't mean they're poorly written though, especially Vampire has some of the greatest characters and dialogue that I've seen in a RPG. If you can play through a modern Final Fantasy game, you won't have a problem with any of these games if you're looking for a good story, because they're all a lot better than any X-series Final Fantasy.
After you're done with that top 11 list, feel free to try modern or oldschool WRPGs.
My WTB thread (Sega CD/Saturn games)
Also looking to buy: Ys III (TG-16 CD), Shadowrun (Genesis) Hori N64 mini pad and Slayer (3DO) in long box/just the long box
Also looking to buy: Ys III (TG-16 CD), Shadowrun (Genesis) Hori N64 mini pad and Slayer (3DO) in long box/just the long box
Re: Do You Have Any Unpopular Gaming Opinions?
I didn't really think this would be an unpopular opinion, but based on the previous pages I guess it is: I think the three core Halo games were all excellent and Halo 3 is my favorite FPS.
And on the topic of Halo, I think Halo 4 is a terrible Halo game and ruined all of the things that made the series good.
And on the topic of Halo, I think Halo 4 is a terrible Halo game and ruined all of the things that made the series good.
