World is Falling Apart Thread (Locked forever)

[ZeroAX]

The US makes for a TERRIBLE arms dealer.

On the contrary. The US weapons companies make record profits, the politicians they support get more money to get re-elected again. It's just the US soldiers and civilians who get killed, but what's a few human casualties compared to hefty profits.

(not going to go into the suffering the gun trade brings to the people of the middle east themselves, because that's not ironic it's just pure sad)

I don't care if Assad is a monster. Until I KNOW that the one replacing him won't be ANOTHER monster, I don't see why we should upset the status quo, and risk making things much worse.

This isn't Yugoslavia, it's much more complex, and seeing how bad the EU fucked THAT up, I don't think we should get involved in this. We can't fix our own fucking problems, how can we try to play world police?

[Luke]

And those West Virginians? Crazy stuff!

[Ack]

On the contrary. The US weapons companies make record profits, the politicians they support get more money to get re-elected again. It's just the US soldiers and civilians who get killed, but what's a few human casualties compared to hefty profits.

(not going to go into the suffering the gun trade brings to the people of the middle east themselves, because that's not ironic it's just pure sad)

I don't care if Assad is a monster. Until I KNOW that the one replacing him won't be ANOTHER monster, I don't see why we should upset the status quo, and risk making things much worse.

This isn't Yugoslavia, it's much more complex, and seeing how bad the EU fucked THAT up, I don't think we should get involved in this. We can't fix our own fucking problems, how can we try to play world police?

That's a bit too black and white. Our arms manufacturers right now are doing spectacularly well, yes, but not because of foreign sales. Domestic demand has been extroardinarily high the last few years. Any time there is a perceived threat to firearms ownership of any sort, such sales increase. But we have also had large ammunition and firearms orders by varies branches of government, which has lead to a smaller available supply as well. As a result, we're seeing record sales at record prices (some firearms dealers have subsequently declared President Obama to be Gun Salesman of the Year).

Second, admittedly what are a few human casualties versus profits and resources, or for that matter a particular political motivation or agenda? Assad certainly thinks his grip on power is worth the lives of his people. Russian arms manufacturers and politicians think keeping Assad in power for their own profits is worth the lives of his people. Many in the Middle East think Assad's removal is worth the lives of others. Hell, the US would love to have Assad removed from power, if only because it would help curb Iran's influence by removing an ally.

More importantly, we also cannot declare the future. You say you favor replacing Assad only if you knew someone who was not a monster would take over, but there is no way to guarantee that. But perhaps the chance to remove a monster is worth the potential risk of getting in another one to the Syrians who have already had to live under one's rule, to the surrounding nations, and to the power players involved.

[ZeroAX]

Second, admittedly what are a few human casualties versus profits and resources, or for that matter a particular political motivation or agenda? Assad certainly thinks his grip on power is worth the lives of his people. Russian arms manufacturers and politicians think keeping Assad in power for their own profits is worth the lives of his people. Many in the Middle East think Assad's removal is worth the lives of others. Hell, the US would love to have Assad removed from power, if only because it would help curb Iran's influence by removing an ally.

More importantly, we also cannot declare the future. You say you favor replacing Assad only if you knew someone who was not a monster would take over, but there is no way to guarantee that. But perhaps the chance to remove a monster is worth the potential risk of getting in another one to the Syrians who have already had to live under one's rule, to the surrounding nations, and to the power players involved.

I was just making a joke, of course that happens all over the world. You can replace the word American with ANY country and it would be true. Heck my country only sold its rifles once and it was to Sadam Hussein apparently (though this is more a rumor, judging by how friendly a relationship our PM of that time had with many middle eastern dictators, it doesn't sound impossible to me). Which just goes to show how "evil" the arms market is, but then again you must be living in your own disney movie if you didn't know that already.

I think Egypt and Libya will be the test cases. If the Islamic governments that were voted in continue to hunt down Muslims of a different caste, Christians, Atheists, liberals ect., and oppressing rights, I will not accept that removing the much more predictable dictators was a good idea (simply put, if you are going to have an evil government in power, you are better with one like China which just wants to be left alone to do its own thing, even if that means violence against its own people, than one like North Korea which is more violent and creates a lot of problems for the world too.



That's politics. If you want to talk ethics, yes let's go to war with all the bad governments in the world. But remember to only bomb the 7% of our parliament, and not the rest of my country ok?

[o.pwuaioc]

I think Egypt and Libya will be the test cases. If the Islamic governments that were voted in continue to hunt down Muslims of a different caste, Christians, Atheists, liberals ect., and oppressing rights, I will not accept that removing the much more predictable dictators was a good idea (simply put, if you are going to have an evil government in power, you are better with one like China which just wants to be left alone to do its own thing, even if that means violence against its own people, than one like North Korea which is more violent and creates a lot of problems for the world too.

Iraq was the first test case. It's so-so. Egypt, Libya, and Tunisia, if they fail, but Iraq succeeds, it would make a strong case in favor of dominant countries leading invasion, not merely acting in an auxiliary role for rebels.

Then again, I don't have too much hope for the Islamic world respecting rights at this point in time. Maybe in 300 years.

[RCBH928]

This must be one of the worst torture videos I have seen :


note the tortured person is still alive and in almost exact translation the Assad army officer/soldier is saying : "This is for who wants freedom . This is the freedom of his god" then the other says "I am going to rape your sister"

[ninjainspandex]

This must be one of the worst torture videos I have seen :


note the tortured person is still alive and in almost exact translation the Assad army officer/soldier is saying : "This is for who wants freedom . This is the freedom of his god" then the other says "I am going to rape your sister"

what the actual fuck did i just watch....

[RCBH928]

This must be one of the worst torture videos I have seen :


note the tortured person is still alive and in almost exact translation the Assad army officer/soldier is saying : "This is for who wants freedom . This is the freedom of his god" then the other says "I am going to rape your sister"

what the actual fuck did i just watch....

its that bad and its been going on for 2 years now but no one is paying attention . US , UN , human rights, animal rights , France . No one.

in fact, news report that Russian soldiers , Iranian soldiers, and Hezbolla militia are all supporting Al Assad's regime against the people of Syria , in Addition reports are stating that China is supporting Al -Assad regime but I am not sure in what means . It could be money , weapons , energy (oil,gas), or soldiers .

-Syria, Iran, Russia and China plan joint war games, Iranian news agency says http://toi.sr/MqTUOE via @timesofisrael

-BBC News - Russia-China unity on Syria as Putin arrives in Beijing http://bbc.in/KzaKjH

-Russia and China vow to protect Syria from becoming another Libya - Pravda.Ru http://english.pravda.ru//hotspots/conf ... a_libya-0/

I believe Syria+China supporting Assad because Iran supports him , and Iran provides China and Russia with energy resources such as natural gas and oil.

[Pulsar_t]

In these dirty conflicts it's always the little people who get stomped on.

[Ack]

its that bad and its been going on for 2 years now but no one is paying attention . US , UN , human rights, animal rights , France . No one.

in fact, news report that Russian soldiers , Iranian soldiers, and Hezbolla militia are all supporting Al Assad's regime against the people of Syria , in Addition reports are stating that China is supporting Al -Assad regime but I am not sure in what means . It could be money , weapons , energy (oil,gas), or soldiers .

-Syria, Iran, Russia and China plan joint war games, Iranian news agency says http://toi.sr/MqTUOE via @timesofisrael

-BBC News - Russia-China unity on Syria as Putin arrives in Beijing http://bbc.in/KzaKjH

-Russia and China vow to protect Syria from becoming another Libya - Pravda.Ru http://english.pravda.ru//hotspots/conf ... a_libya-0/

I believe Syria+China supporting Assad because Iran supports him , and Iran provides China and Russia with energy resources such as natural gas and oil.

They also provide a large arms market for both Russia and China, and those countries are worried about losing a buyer.

As for the United Nations, this is the typical pattern to their behavior. Nations within the UN do not want the UN involved, because if it does get involved, that means the member nations may have to send supplies and troops, and they're not willing to take the risk. This has been the case in Rwanda, Bosnia, Sudan, the Iraq-Iran war of the 1980s, and so on. Hell, UN members pulled troops out of Rwanda when the 1994 genocide got going after a pair of Belgian soldiers were killed.

Keep in mind that the UN security council has Russia and China as permanent members too. Neither want the Assad regime to fail. And while China might fold to pressure if it were the only dissenting voice (it's happened before. China dislikes being the odd man out), it generally always backs Russia.

As for the US not getting involved, we're also quite slow to move in, particularly with this administration. We're likely looking at the problem through the framework of Libya: the forces on the government side are definitely enemies, but so are some of the forces that are attempting to overthrow the government. If we back the government, we back an ally of Iran, threatening our interests in the region. If we back the rebellion, we back organizations linked with terrorist activities that we are actively combating around the globe. In short, we help people, sure, but the long term result may lead to future war in the Middle East involving our allies or ourselves, terror attacks involving Syria's chemical weapons stockpiles on the US, her interests, or her allies, and potentially enabling opposed groups to export their revolution and religious totalitarianism to other friendly nations in the region.