Xbox One

[foxhound1022]

Ok, we all know the potential pitfalls and whatnot.

Buy it or don't buy it; who cares?

[Krejlooc]

Ok, we all know the potential pitfalls and whatnot.

Buy it or don't buy it; who cares?

lots of people? I don't know how someone can meet a wall of dissent with "who cares?" Why don't you save time and simply say, "I don't care" if that's what you mean?

I thought I did a pretty good job of explaining why attempts to educate the public about this stuff is important to me beyond my own personal enjoyment of gaming.

[foxhound1022]

Ok, we all know the potential pitfalls and whatnot.

Buy it or don't buy it; who cares?

lots of people? I don't know how someone can meet a wall of dissent with "who cares?" Why don't you save time and simply say, "I don't care" if that's what you mean?

I thought I did a pretty good job of explaining why attempts to educate the public about this stuff is important to me beyond my own personal enjoyment of gaming.

As far as "educating the public", the information is easily accessible to anyone. So please don't act as if you're providing a valuable PSA or something.

Secondly, I think you're getting all excited over something that is totally out of our control.

[Krejlooc]

Ok, we all know the potential pitfalls and whatnot.

Buy it or don't buy it; who cares?

lots of people? I don't know how someone can meet a wall of dissent with "who cares?" Why don't you save time and simply say, "I don't care" if that's what you mean?

I thought I did a pretty good job of explaining why attempts to educate the public about this stuff is important to me beyond my own personal enjoyment of gaming.

As far as "educating the public", the information is easily accessible to anyone. So please don't act as if you're providing a valuable PSA or something.

Secondly, I think you're getting all excited over something that is totally out of our control.

Regardless of how "easily accessible" information is, many people still don't seek it out. A simple stroll through this thread should be enough to figure that out - pages after pages of people making incorrect claims (It's just like steam!) despite the correction being right in their face.

And there you, right there, you ended your statement with yet another incorrect statement. This shit isn't out of our control. I have seen technology get rejected by the public before -- remember DivX? I disagree with your defeatist attitude.

edit: Also, your sentiment goes against every academically accepted model of public adoption. I am a enthusiast. We educate the mass public. If you honestly think the informed don't have a place in agenda setting, well....you're wrong. And there are thousands upon thousands of resources to back this up.

[dsheinem]

SonicRetard you should make more long posts and less short ones. While I still think the Xbox One is not going to be the scourge of the gaming industry or dictate a new paradigm that's going to regularly/permanently take control away from consumers, the logic behind your earlier arguments is now much clearer and more eloquently stated in a way that, I think, garners much more sympathy and understandng for your position. So thanks.

Truth be told, I also don't like the DRM measures for much the same reasons you mention. BUT, I think my (potenial) desire to play (yet unannounced) games on the system will ultimately outweigh my dislike of the DRM.

[Krejlooc]

SonicRetard you should make more long posts and less short ones. While I still think the Xbox One is not going to be the scourge of the gaming industry or dictate a new paradigm that's going to regularly/permanently take control away from consumers, the logic behind your earlier arguments is now much clearer and more eloquently stated in a way that, I think, garners much more sympathy and understandng for your position. So thanks.

Well, on a personal aside, I don't really understand why my posts would ever be taken as "Raging." I never raged in this topic, I've been personally collected during this entire conversation. I get that text is usually presented more bluntly and intent is hard to express without the subtle cues we pick up from facial recognition, but I did my best to avoid personal attacks and keep focus on the argument at hand. I am a pretty big believe in personal freedom and that everybody is free to come to their own conclusion. It frustrates me to be met with accusations that I am irrationally invested in an argument. Yes, I am emotionally invested, but my emotion doesn't override my rational. When people start assuming the other side is intending to be as cutting as possible, real discourse is impossible. I try my hardest to remind myself that the person on the otherside doesn't mean disrespect (unless I'm actually insulted or cursed at, of course). Perhaps it's egotistical of me to assume, but I would hope that my posts on this forum have generally been more substance than fluff (as in, overall, not just in this thread), and that it would grant me a bit of of the benefit of the doubt about my intent.

Thank you for considering my argument, however.

[Jmustang1968]

lots of people? I don't know how someone can meet a wall of dissent with "who cares?" Why don't you save time and simply say, "I don't care" if that's what you mean?

I thought I did a pretty good job of explaining why attempts to educate the public about this stuff is important to me beyond my own personal enjoyment of gaming.

As far as "educating the public", the information is easily accessible to anyone. So please don't act as if you're providing a valuable PSA or something.

Secondly, I think you're getting all excited over something that is totally out of our control.

Regardless of how "easily accessible" information is, many people still don't seek it out. A simple stroll through this thread should be enough to figure that out - pages after pages of people making incorrect claims (It's just like steam!) despite the correction being right in their face.

And there you, right there, you ended your statement with yet another incorrect statement. This shit isn't out of our control. I have seen technology get rejected by the public before -- remember DivX? I disagree with your defeatist attitude.

edit: Also, your sentiment goes against every academically accepted model of public adoption. I am a enthusiast. We educate the mass public. If you honestly think the informed don't have a place in agenda setting, well....you're wrong. And there are thousands upon thousands of resources to back this up.

There is no correction in my face to how I will treat he xbone as I do my PC gaming. I am referring to buying/collecting aspect. I made no incorrect statement. Get off your high-horse soap box.

You say you aren't telling us how to feel about it, yet you clearly are. You will 'correct' my flippant attitude. State your case and position and let others decide for themselves if purchasing the system will be worth it for them.

You may be informed, but that doesn't make your predictions correct. How do you know there won't be similar cracks or mods to keep these games alive past the shelf life of the system? This is all a knee jerk sky is falling reaction.

[corn619]

Personally, I think anytime the consumer has less control over the product they buy is a bad thing, no one can argue that. The following story has nothing to do with video games, but is I think its a great example of when large companies restrict what consumers can do with their products. The only reason I even heard about it is because my buys and sells perfume online for extra money. I wonder if a bullshit law like this could ever be put on used games of all ages. Probably just the paranoid side of me talking here, but it made me think.

http://www.thefreelibrary.com/French+fi ... 0213204599

[AppleQueso]

You know, a lot of these would be par for the course and totally expected if they were just going right out the gate with a 100% digital model. The industry has been heading that way for a while anyway, so I don't quite understand Microsoft's desire to forcibly shove physical media out of the way for this. If it's just a move to appease publishers, I don't understand why these features have to be a system wide implementation. All this seems to really be doing is creating a lot of negative publicity.

[Krejlooc]

There is no correction in my face to how I will treat he xbone as I do my PC gaming. I am referring to buying/collecting aspect. I made no incorrect statement. Get off your high-horse soap box.

You use terms like "this may become an inconvenience" or "this might be an issue." Those are flat-out incorrect. It WILL become an inconvenience, this isn't up for debate. One day the authentication servers will be offline, and it will be inconvenient. Will it be a personal inconvenience? I dunno, I'm not you. But it will be one. I don't really understand how you can't see this, but to say that you can't see beyond your own habits.

You say you aren't telling us how to feel about it, yet you clearly are. You will 'correct' my flippant attitude. State your case and position and let others decide for themselves if purchasing the system will be worth it for them.

I correct your flippant attitude on issues you are incorrect about. Love this shit all you want, you are wrong to paint the issues as mere vague possibilities.

You may be informed, but that doesn't make your predictions correct. How do you know there won't be similar cracks or mods to keep these games alive past the shelf life of the system? This is all a knee jerk sky is falling reaction.

Because, as someone technologically sound, I understand the difficulties of "cracking" these games. Something that requires a very simple authentication? Sure, a server emulator can be built depending on how the authentication is presented. The much more dangerous shift towards cloud computing as a method of DRM? Yeah, that can't really be defeated. And, yes, cloud computing as it is being presented by microsoft is nothing more than DRM. They are relying on technological ignorance to obfuscate their claims, hoping that their audience isn't savvy enough to know if what they are describing is bullshit or not. To present succinctly why their claims of "40 times 'power' increases" thanks to cloud computing are bullshit, all of their arguments are repositioning of the benefits of parallel processing. Arguments like "well we can shift the rendering of the background to the cloud, which frees up cycles on our CPU to do AI stuff!" is literal parallel processing. As someone who has actual experience in parallel processing, there is, from top to bottom, nothing but problems with the scenario they present, from synchronization issues to latency concerns. Parallel processing is predicated on tightly controlling your cycle count - you need to know, down to the cycle, how long a process will take. The infinite variability of internet conditions makes such a feat completely impossible. And that ignores the blatant unfeasible nature of their solution - they're going to offset the most time dependent operations to an inherently slow source? Just... madness!

Then there is the constantly updating nature of their security measures. Both the PS3 and Xbox 360 underwent numerous security updates as the consoles lived. Holes were consistently patched, and you could never get a reliable solution for cracking these systems. Additionally, the hypervisor for the PS3 was NEVER cracked.

But ok, let's ignore that, because when I typed that comment about PC games, I already anticipated this argument. Ok, let's say somehow this stuff gets cracked and DRM isn't an issue anymore. That wasn't my only problem, and cracking games weren't my only solution. How could you not see that? If my sole argument for quelling fears of DRM on steam lied with hope that, perhaps, possibly, maybe someone will crack the thing, then hell no I wouldn't be OK with steam. Cherry picking specific parts of my post to argue is meaningless, because the entire post is an argument.

And finally, this general attitude of only caring about your personal consumption just baffles me. Perhaps because I approach games from a developers mindset rather than purely as a consumer, I see things a bit differently -- but does nobody honestly care about video games as a medium? As in, not a medium to consume, not caring about my personal experience consuming the medium, but the medium as a large? I do. I really care about game making, not just the game making I do. I think it's mentally engaging. The things the medium can do - I like to not only experiment with how things work, but also deconstruct other's works and see how they approached problems, to understand their solutions. Like literature or film or music or any other medium, the livelyhood of the art itself is worth holding up to examination.

Exercising a bit of your own advice, I will not reply to any more of your comments. It's pretty obvious where your mindset comes from, and what your stance is. I have never tried to force you to change it, only presented you with the reality of the situation, and you disagree. I've lead the horse to water, I'm not going to make you drink. So, rather than raging (see what I did there?) why not just agree to disagree? And stop trying to tell me to stop caring about this, stop discussing this, or stop engaging in this while you're at it? Because all that will happen is this topic will become a series of personal attacks going forward.