"Immersive sim" RPGs

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Menegrothx
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"Immersive sim" RPGs

Post by Menegrothx »

So are there any more RPGs like this out there? http://www.giantbomb.com/immersive-sim/3015-5700/

The only RPGs that I can really think of that fit the bill are Deus Ex and Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines. I know there are more FPS RPG games out there, and RPGs with simulation elements, but not games that have both. Ultima 7 is probably the most interactive RPG ever but its not first person. Ultima Underworlds and System Shocks have the RPG elements and interactivity but don't really feature NPCs to talk with - it's all about survival. Ultima Underworld has NPCs, but the games feature very little dialogue and interaction between characters. I don't feel that the S.T.A.L.K.E.R games qualify either, as they are very survival oriented, rather than the game taking place in a city like Deus Ex and Vampire. Also the writing and quests are very peripheral in S.T.A.L.K.E.R. And I don't feel like Fallout 3 or New Vegas really live up to this standard either. I've heard that Alpha protocol and E.Y.E.: Divine Cybermancy are like this, but I haven't played them.

So what I'm looking for is a RPG that's really immersive, to the point that it feels like you're really in the game world and that it's a real place. Even though Vampire the Masquerade was rushed out, and as a result quite buggy and the last 25-35% of the game was dissapointingly average compared to how great the game was up to that point, it's still one of the most enjoyable RPGs I've ever played and I'd like to find another game like it.
Things I really enjoy about this game:
-Excellent writing and characters. Vampire had some of the best characters I've seen in a video game, really well written, voice acted and animated. And there many fascinating and different characters. The whole concept of malkavians and many of their dialogue options are brilliant. I really enjoyed conversations with some of the NPCs and listening to the radioshow Deb of night (and many of the satirical commercials :) )
Like I said, games like Thief, System Shock and S.T.A.L.K.E.R don't qualify even though I like them, because I want there to be a stronger emphasis on story and dialogue.
->You can roleplay different types of characters and decide to side with different types of people. You can try to seudce and intimidate people, team up with the bad guy, backstab the good guy etc. Vampire had 4 different factions and as a result 6 endings (1 faction had a choiche between 2 different endings and you could decide to not team up with anyone of them)

-The dark horror athmosphere. Granted I don't expect to find another game like this, but I really enjoy the dark athmosphere in games like Vampire, Deus Ex and Thief in general. Sneaking around, exploring the nonlinear levels, hacking computers and reading emails and diaries I'm not supposed to, eavesdropping on conversations, talking to different people and learning more about the gameworld that way (in other words it feels like I came across the information myself, rather than being forcefed it in cutscenes and mandatory quests, so it feels more rewarding when you start to unravel what's going on in the gameworld)

- Gameplay/RPG mechanics that have depth. Both Vampire and Deus Ex did this, but I think Vampire did it better as it had many different clans to play so you had a lot of options when it comes to creating a character (and roleplaying with it). System Shock 2 also did a good job, and if we go beyond the realm of first person view games, Arcanum: Of Steamworks and Magick Obscura also did this, as you had many different races, alignments and playstyles to choose from.
->There are multiple ways of solve quests. Like say you need to get into a building; you can go in guns blazing from front door that's heavily guarded, picklock the cellar and sneak in, seduce a guard to giving you the key, pile up crates so you can access the building through a window etc.

-How the world feels believable and "alive" because:
1. Level and quest design isn't linear and there's a lot of areas that don't serve a direct purporse - they're either for finding more info about the game world, getting sidequests or something along those lines. I think the Santa Monica area in Vampire is a good example of this: there aren't many buildings you can't enter and the game area feels "real" because of this. And by hacking into computers and reading emails you can find info about all kinds of different people (like patients at a hospital or the inhabitants of an appartment complex) that serve no purporse, other than to make the game world feel more alive, as its seemingly inhabited by all kinds of people, not just by the NPCs who give you quests.
2. There's a lot of interconnectivity. Happenings in the game world are referenced to in different contexts. Like if you blow up a warehouse during a mission ->The news anchor in the TV speaks of an explosion or a possible terrorist attack in the news later on in the game. Or it could be in the newspaper. Or two people talking in a convenience store or in the streets about it.
3. Because you can read emails, diaries etc, many important NPCs feel like they have lives of their own rather than just standing in a corner giving quests to you. For instance in Vampire you can read an e-mail in a hacked computer during one mission, in which the person you're working for currently is talking to your enemy -> you can predict that character will betray you even before the scripted sequence for betrayal happens. And if I recall, you can confront that character and tell what you saw. And that leads me to
4. Branching quests and conversations as opposed to linear ones that are the same to all players. Everything from characters reacting differently to you based on your looks, faction and reputation to being able to have multiple outcomes to a single quest, like say betraying the person who gave you the quest, or able to finish the quest in some other way if you happen to kill the quest giver.

I know that many of the best 2D/Isometric and turnbased oldschool CRPGs are like this and I like that kind of RPGs, but having a 3D game world with real time, first person combat like in Deus Ex and Vampire just makes the game world and espescially many of the missions where you can use stealth, talk your way out of fights etc so much more immersive and intense.


I do aknowledge that both Deus Ex and Vampire were flawed and were far from really creating a world that's truly "alive", but they're the closest any 3D RPG has managed to capture that feel imo.
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isiolia
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Re: "Immersive sim" RPGs

Post by isiolia »

While it's an MMO, and thus structured in a different way than you might be looking for, you may want to look into the Secret World as it definitely succeeds in at least some of those areas.

It's now using the Buy-to-play model a la Guild Wars.


What I tried of E.Y.E. seemed very promising for that, but it has a horrible UI.
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Re: "Immersive sim" RPGs

Post by Erik_Twice »

I think you should really try pen and paper RPGs. I know it's not easy and I can't promise "good writing" when you are inexperienced but you would lreally like them :lol:

I mean, you can get the Vampire rulebook (either Masquerade or Requiem) and a book with adventures in it for 40$. Why not try it? :D
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Menegrothx
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Re: "Immersive sim" RPGs

Post by Menegrothx »

General_Norris wrote:I think you should really try pen and paper RPGs. I know it's not easy and I can't promise "good writing" when you are inexperienced but you would lreally like them :lol:

I mean, you can get the Vampire rulebook (either Masquerade or Requiem) and a book with adventures in it for 40$. Why not try it? :D
Because the graphics are horrible

I'm intrigued of trying pen and paper RPGs but to my knowledge there aren't any soloable games out there. And maybe it's just the inexperience talking but I don't see how a nonvisual medium with no music, ambience sounds etc could have the same kind of athmosphere as a video game. It's the awesome missions (like sneaking in the haunted mansion, or going to the underground photo studio just to find out that there's gore everywhere and the guy who runs it is a maniac) and those little touches (when the game turns out to be more interactive/real than you expect an shooter, or even a RPG to be) that make the gameworld feel more real that makes these games so enjoyable to me. And before you ask, yes I have read books during my life and found them enjoyable :)
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tintinmayo
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Re: "Immersive sim" RPGs

Post by tintinmayo »

How about Skyrim?
Menegrothx
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Re: "Immersive sim" RPGs

Post by Menegrothx »

Image
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Re: "Immersive sim" RPGs

Post by fastbilly1 »

Menegrothx wrote:I'm intrigued of trying pen and paper RPGs but to my knowledge there aren't any soloable games out there.
There are very few:
http://boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/42361/pocket-dungeon
Is about the only one I know that is worthwhile.
Menegrothx wrote:And maybe it's just the inexperience talking but I don't see how a nonvisual medium with no music, ambience sounds etc could have the same kind of athmosphere as a video game. It's the awesome missions (like sneaking in the haunted mansion, or going to the underground photo studio just to find out that there's gore everywhere and the guy who runs it is a maniac) and those little touches (when the game turns out to be more interactive/real than you expect an shooter, or even a RPG to be) that make the gameworld feel more real that makes these games so enjoyable to me. And before you ask, yes I have read books during my life and found them enjoyable :)

The power of an RPG campaign, is based on the storytelling ability of the GM and the players. And if you have a good GM, it can make up for bad storytelling by the players. One way to approach PNP RPGs are are improve storytelling within the boundaries of a world setup by one of the players. While that is intimidating to some, if you can get a group that builds on each other, it is magic. Some of the games I have been in got to the point where the players stopped using dice for anything but combat (which we usually use heroscape tiles for since I have a huge collection of figurines).
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Re: "Immersive sim" RPGs

Post by J T »

Any of the Elder Scrolls games sound like they fit what you're looking for.
Dead Island sounds about right. Fallout 3 maybe? Borderlands?

For something a bit older, maybe Lands of Lore 2: Guardians of Destiny or Arx Fatalis. Even some of the old Might & Magic games.
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Re: "Immersive sim" RPGs

Post by Erik_Twice »

Menegrothx wrote:I'm intrigued of trying pen and paper RPGs but to my knowledge there aren't any soloable games out there.
They do exist but they aren't worth it.

The great things about roleplaying games is that there are no barriers in the world. One of the dissapointing things about Bloodlines was how static the world was. You are forced to follow Delacroix, you are forced to trust Beckett , half of the characters show once and then dissapear entirily and your whole fate has already been decided by you.

This is why I recommend you to try one, if you think being able to hack into things and sneak is amazing, imagine what a pen and paper RPG would let you do! Seeing characters and the whole world change by your actions, which can be anything, is an amazing thing.

This is not to say there aren't any problems or that you will suddenly have the single most amazing game of all time in your hands. But it's really worth it and I recommend you to check it out.
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Menegrothx
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Re: "Immersive sim" RPGs

Post by Menegrothx »

J T wrote:Any of the Elder Scrolls games sound like they fit what you're looking for.
Dead Island sounds about right. Fallout 3 maybe? Borderlands?

For something a bit older, maybe Lands of Lore 2: Guardians of Destiny or Arx Fatalis. Even some of the old Might & Magic games.
Already said I don't count the new Fallouts in this category. I don't really see how Borderlands or Dead Island would fit the bill. Arx Fatalis and Might and Magic go to the same category with Ultima Underworlds, they're focused on dungeon exploration, combat and survival rather than story.
I have Lands of Lore on my games to play list but since I haven't tried the game out yet I can't really comment on if it fits or not.

I think you could say that the older Elder Scrolls games qualify but I see them more as traditional fantasy RPGs rather than the kind of games that Deus Ex and Vampire represent. I guess that's because hacking and reading emails is such a major part of the gameplay experience of those games so you expect games like this to take place in the modern time/future.
General_Norris wrote: The great things about roleplaying games is that there are no barriers in the world. One of the dissapointing things about Bloodlines was how static the world was. You are forced to follow Delacroix, you are forced to trust Beckett , half of the characters show once and then dissapear entirily and your whole fate has already been decided by you.
Of course. You simply can't do that stuff in a video game, it's too hard to execute. That's why a game like Dwarf Fortress is so much more real life like and complex than any game with graphics. And an oldschool rpg like Ultima 7 is much more realistic and interactive than any 3D game with a physics engine. But for video games these games are magnificent. Compared to most games they do so much more when it comes to interactivity and immersion that I don't really pay attention to the stuff that's un-interactive/immersion breaking :P
My WTB thread (Sega CD/Saturn games)
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