Metal Heads Assemble!!

[Forlorn Drifter]

There's different forms of "bad" production too. Intentional, like some BM bands. In a garage fuck everything Thrash "muffled" style. (Like your hearing it from the next room) Sludgy, "our vocalist is half drunk in the next room, so he's vocalizing from there", etc.

Still trying to find some sludge with vocals I like.

[BoneSnapDeez]

How about crusty sludge like Corrupted, Facedowninshit, or Noothgrush?

I can't deal with the stoner sludge stuff.

[BurningDoom]

Yes... but in general "bad production" is one of the trademarks of black metal. See Darkthrone, Beherit, Ildjarn, some early Ulver, Mütiilation, etc... All classic bands. "Bad" production can sound incredibly good and carries an incredible atmosphere when done right.

Okay. How about black metal bands like Dimmu Borgir, Cradle of Filth, and God Dethroned?

Saying that bad production is a trademark of black metal is a bit of a blanket statement. There's just as much well produced black metal as there is poorly produced black metal. The same as any other sub-genre of metal.

A certain type of production is indeed a characteristic of many (most?) of the defining second-wave BM bands. Certainly clean production is prevalent in post-second wave bands, symphonic black metal bands, etc.

My point is that someone who is trying to explore the genre of black metal is going to be put off by many classic records if high production value is important to him/her. I never said all BM records have poor production (which is subjective anyway, as I said a lot of "bad" production sounds great to my ears).

Funny how you mention Dimmu Borgir, as I do think the original No Colours pressing of For all tid and the original pressing of Stormblåst feature that classic BM production. For all Tid was eventually remastered and Stormblåst was re-recorded completely.

Early releases by bands are often marked with bad production values. This is true, again, for all sub-genres of metal. Metallica's original release of Kill 'Em All is a high-profile example.

I just don't think it's any worse in Black Metal than it is in any other type of metal. Lesser-known bands often have bad production values, while the more known ones have great production values.

[Forlorn Drifter]

How about crusty sludge like Corrupted, Facedowninshit, or Noothgrush?

I can't deal with the stoner sludge stuff.

I'll look into it. I'm not feeling the higher pitched sounding Hardcore yells. I want either more of a growl, or more natural sounding yelling. Cleans are always good too.

I also really like, say, Acid Witch musically, but their vocals are too black metallish and screechy for my tastes.

And by stoner sludge, do you mean stuff along the lines of Electric Wizard?

[AppleQueso]

Early releases by bands are often marked with bad production values. This is true, again, for all sub-genres of metal. Metallica's original release of Kill 'Em All is a high-profile example.

I just don't think it's any worse in Black Metal than it is in any other type of metal. Lesser-known bands often have bad production values, while the more known ones have great production values.

Kill 'Em All is bad production?

I think there's one big piece of the equation you're missing here: black metal bands with poor production values generally have poor production values intentionally.

[Ack]

I just want to throw out that I don't like Cradle of Filth. Their music grates on my ears.

As for me, black metal is a weird subgenre that seems to be very hit or miss. I really enjoy Skeletonwitch, and Venom is a classic for me, but stuff like Dimmu Borgir just doesn't do it for me.

[BurningDoom]

Early releases by bands are often marked with bad production values. This is true, again, for all sub-genres of metal. Metallica's original release of Kill 'Em All is a high-profile example.

I just don't think it's any worse in Black Metal than it is in any other type of metal. Lesser-known bands often have bad production values, while the more known ones have great production values.

Kill 'Em All is bad production?

I think there's one big piece of the equation you're missing here: black metal bands with poor production values generally have poor production values intentionally.

Nobody was debating that. He says that most Black Metal has poor production value, and I say that's not always the case. It's no more than say thrash metal or power metal.

And yes. The pre-remastered version of Kill Em All is OBVIOUSLY of lower production value than the albums following it.

[GSZX1337]

As for me, black metal is a weird subgenre that seems to be very hit or miss. I really enjoy Skeletonwitch, and Venom is a classic for me, but stuff like Dimmu Borgir just doesn't do it for me.

Skeletonwitch is more of a Thrash Metal band with elements of Black Metal than an outright Black Metal band. Their most recent album changes things up a bit, but the statement still holds true. Also, Venom played a huge role in shaping Thrash.

[BoneSnapDeez]

Early releases by bands are often marked with bad production values. This is true, again, for all sub-genres of metal. Metallica's original release of Kill 'Em All is a high-profile example.

I just don't think it's any worse in Black Metal than it is in any other type of metal. Lesser-known bands often have bad production values, while the more known ones have great production values.

Kill 'Em All is bad production?

I think there's one big piece of the equation you're missing here: black metal bands with poor production values generally have poor production values intentionally.

Nobody was debating that. He says that most Black Metal has poor production value, and I say that's not always the case. It's no more than say thrash metal or power metal.

.......but I didn't say that. I said "plenty of black metal."

And the user I was speaking to was just beginning to explore Norwegian second-wave stuff, which is exactly where the production I was talking about is most likely to be encountered.

As Apple states, I'm not talking about bands being forced to record with sub-par production due to lack of funds or whatnot, I'm talking about bands making a stylistic/artistic choice to record with a specific type of lo-fo/"trebly" production (often labeled "bad" by the layperson). Again, this is common to the genre - just as its common for so many hip-hop records to have "bass-y" production, modern pop records to have "loud, clean" production, etc...

If you're unfamiliar with what we're talking about here my one and only suggestion would be "listen to more black metal." You seem to be mostly into post-second-wave Century Media/Nuclear Blast type stuff, which is cool but hardly representative of the genre as a whole.

[Ack]

As for me, black metal is a weird subgenre that seems to be very hit or miss. I really enjoy Skeletonwitch, and Venom is a classic for me, but stuff like Dimmu Borgir just doesn't do it for me.

Skeletonwitch is more of a Thrash Metal band with elements of Black Metal than an outright Black Metal band. Their most recent album changes things up a bit, but the statement still holds true. Also, Venom played a huge role in shaping Thrash.

And that's my issue! I like thrash, so in black metal I prefer that. But black metal doesn't have to have those thrash elements, which makes it foreign and strange to me, hence my calling it weird. It can incorporate those elements and influences I like, but it doesn't have to.