Why has the Saturn been forgotten among modern gamers?

[o.pwuaioc]

The difference with the PSX however, is that after the popularity of FF7 and subsequent square titles on the PSX, countless JRPGs were being churned out left and right by more than a few North American publishers. The list of JRPG releases, successful or not, for the PSX absolutely dwarfs the snes's list. There's especially so many obscure games that got stupidly small print runs (that would put atlas to shame) on that system. People such as Working Designs come to mind. PSX's RPG list is second only to the PS2's, as far as I'm aware.

Being second only to the PS2's doesn't raise any alarms in your head? Let's look at the facts:

49.10 million SNES units were sold
40 million Genesis units were sold
102.49 million PS1 units were sold
155 million PS2 units were sold

PS1 brought not RPGs but gaming to the masses. Of course the PS1 is going to have more RPGs than the SNES, and of course the PS2 is going to have more RPGs than the PS1. But the PS2 library is larger than the PS1 library, and the PS1 library is larger than the SNES library. Given that all three were RPG powerhouses, it's circular logic to argue that the PS1 RPGs were more mainstream.

As I have shown with pure sales, given a list of the best-selling games, PS1 doesn't have that many more big selling RPGs than the SNES does, and all but one was a Squaresoft title, and of those Squaresoft titles 4 out of the 6 were Final Fantasy. Meanwhile, the it's no coincidence that after Nintendo's push for Final Fantasy on the NES, that IV and VI would be big hits here (and V was huge in Japan, too).

If we look at PS2 numbers, the same trend follows. Games which sold over 1 million are:

// sold very well in US and Japan
FFX 6.6 million
FFX-2 4.06 million
FFXII 5.2 million

// The opposite of the FF games, these two were sold twice as much in the US than in Japan
Kingdom Hearts 4.78 million
Kingdom Hearts 2 3.89 million

// Oddities
Dragon Quest VIII 3.6 million in Japan, 430,000 in North America
Star Ocean 740,000 in US, 533,373 in Japan
Xenosaga 1 million total

It seems to me that JRPGs were just as popular then as ever. Excepting a few well-known or suitably American titles like Kingdom Hearts and Super Mario RPG, the refrain that the PS1 made JRPGs "mainstream" seems mistaken. Rather, it's purely a numbers game. There were just more, so they seemed more mainstream. I think the issues of getting Xenoblade Chronicles here proves as much.

[brukner1129]

- With more games comes something that is insanely important when it comes to selling any product; brand name. That is what the Sega Saturn really lacked, there was no brand for the Saturn other than Sega's name in itself. People may have grown tired of it, but another 2D Sonic still would have sold units, especially if they went balls to the walls with it and made it a super expansive 2D game. There were hardly any familiar franchises to appear on the Saturn. If Saturn says "BRAND NEW STREETS OF RAGE!!! ITS SO XTREME" and showed a 3D hack and slash, that shit would have sold like hot cakes just on the title alone.

I really wish there would have been a sonic game on the saturn (sonic r really doesn't count). You hit the nail on the head there, though, as virtually none of Sega's major brands ever hit the Saturn, they just kinda skipped over it and went straight to Dreamcast.

I mean heck, I was a Genesis kid (as was everyone in my school) which was a system that barely had any RPGs,

http://www.racketboy.com/retro/sega-gen ... drive-rpgs
http://www.racketboy.com/retro/sega/gen ... ary-page-2

[ChimairaGT]

Everyone in this thread should read Service Games. You'd all love it.

Amazed I'd never heard of it. Just nabbed the Kindle version.

[Retronomy]

The difference with the PSX however, is that after the popularity of FF7 and subsequent square titles on the PSX, countless JRPGs were being churned out left and right by more than a few North American publishers. The list of JRPG releases, successful or not, for the PSX absolutely dwarfs the snes's list. There's especially so many obscure games that got stupidly small print runs (that would put atlas to shame) on that system. People such as Working Designs come to mind. PSX's RPG list is second only to the PS2's, as far as I'm aware.

Being second only to the PS2's doesn't raise any alarms in your head? Let's look at the facts:

49.10 million SNES units were sold
40 million Genesis units were sold
102.49 million PS1 units were sold
155 million PS2 units were sold

PS1 brought not RPGs but gaming to the masses. Of course the PS1 is going to have more RPGs than the SNES, and of course the PS2 is going to have more RPGs than the PS1. But the PS2 library is larger than the PS1 library, and the PS1 library is larger than the SNES library. Given that all three were RPG powerhouses, it's circular logic to argue that the PS1 RPGs were more mainstream.

As I have shown with pure sales, given a list of the best-selling games, PS1 doesn't have that many more big selling RPGs than the SNES does, and all but one was a Squaresoft title, and of those Squaresoft titles 4 out of the 6 were Final Fantasy. Meanwhile, the it's no coincidence that after Nintendo's push for Final Fantasy on the NES, that IV and VI would be big hits here (and V was huge in Japan, too).

If we look at PS2 numbers, the same trend follows. Games which sold over 1 million are:

// sold very well in US and Japan
FFX 6.6 million
FFX-2 4.06 million
FFXII 5.2 million

// The opposite of the FF games, these two were sold twice as much in the US than in Japan
Kingdom Hearts 4.78 million
Kingdom Hearts 2 3.89 million

// Oddities
Dragon Quest VIII 3.6 million in Japan, 430,000 in North America
Star Ocean 740,000 in US, 533,373 in Japan
Xenosaga 1 million total

It seems to me that JRPGs were just as popular then as ever. Excepting a few well-known or suitably American titles like Kingdom Hearts and Super Mario RPG, the refrain that the PS1 made JRPGs "mainstream" seems mistaken. Rather, it's purely a numbers game. There were just more, so they seemed more mainstream. I think the issues of getting Xenoblade Chronicles here proves as much.

If you want to quote statistics, you gotta do it right.
Convey sales of RPGs in relation to sales of consoles, then compare that number with the PSX. Yes, it is a numbers game, it's called ratio.
Meanwhile, while there may technically be MORE RPGS for the PS2, the density is LESS than the PSX's, and the PS3's density is significantly less. I'm not sure if there is any system that churned out as many RPGs relative to other titles than the PSX.

[o.pwuaioc]

Meanwhile, while there may technically be MORE RPGS for the PS2, the density is LESS than the PSX's, and the PS3's density is significantly less. I'm not sure if there is any system that churned out as many RPGs relative to other titles than the PSX.

Thankfully, brunoafh already did that for me:



PS1 RPGs comprise 9% of the library
PS2 RPGs comprise 10% of the library

Here's the whopper. SNES RPGs comprise 14% of the library.

Unfortunately, the numbers in the charts are for the library as a whole, and not just US releases.

Interestingly, if you only had a Sega during the 8 and 16 bit generations, you would have been less likely to be familiar with RPGs, considering that they trailed Nintendo, MS at 4% compared to the NES at 11% and Genesis at 5% compared to the SNES at 14%.

[Retronomy]

Yeah, I'm really talking about the US here, but those numbers are interesting nonetheless!

Does s/he make a distinction between action rpg and traditional rpgs? And does s/he count games released in different regions as single entities? If I had more time on my hands, I'd make a chart for NA released by genre, but sadly I don't really. Might be a nice project for the future.

Keep in mind that there are way more RPGs that only saw NTSC-J releases, and then there's also PAL releases which don't exactly fall in line with NTSC-U releases. Conversely, we also got some western RPGS/action RPGs that japan just didn't get either.

Now, my opinion on the SNES's rpg mainstream popularity mostly comes from growing up with the system and interacting with other SNES owners at that time as well as hindsight. If I ran those numbers for NA only, I could definitely just be flat out wrong. But it certainly didn't feel that way. Back then, we didn't really give it a thought to those few rpgs we did play. I mean, I played Pokemon on gameboy for a few years before I finally learned that it was called a "role playing game" when I decided I wanted to learn about potential similar games. Before that, I'd only played Zelda, Illusion of Gaia, Final Fantasy Mystic Quest and Final Fantasy II. We knew what platformers, action games, puzzle games and so forth were, but when we came across the good old turn based RPG, we only had so much that we knew of to relate it to. Again, hindsight being 20/20 we now know there are way more than we thought they were, but we also look for these titles now.

Anyway, we've long since derailed this thread.
But yeah, I stand firm that the average Saturn owner didn't own the system to play role playing games. It was definitely suited towards arcade like gameplay. I don't think that placing more emphasis on RPGs would have done much to change the Saturn's eventual fate although I'm sure we'd all reap the benefits much later.

There are, however, some really great RPGs for the Saturn. You just need to look fairly hard for them and expect to pay a pretty penny. Or import.

Interestingly, if you only had a Sega during the 8 and 16 bit generations, you would have been less likely to be familiar with RPGs, considering that they trailed Nintendo, MS at 4% compared to the NES at 11% and Genesis at 5% compared to the SNES at 14%.

You know, it's funny, but having been one that owned both, I actually managed to play more RPGs on the Genesis, defying the odds. I had Shining Force, Shining in the Darkness, Phantasy Star IV, Landstalker, etc. I would actually learn about other SNES RPGS a few years later from people who still owned and actively played SNES well into the 32 bit generation.

[3DSStrider]

What does age have to do with it? I'm 14 and the Saturn is one of my favorite systems.

Ask most 14 year olds what a saturn is and then ask them what an xbox 360 is.

Your post implied that if they get older they'll just suddenly know what a Saturn is.

[aaron]

The Playstation just wasn't E for it.

fixed.

[brukner1129]

Anyway, we've long since derailed this thread.
But yeah, I stand firm that the average Saturn owner didn't own the system to play role playing games. It was definitely suited towards arcade like gameplay. I don't think that placing more emphasis on RPGs would have done much to change the Saturn's eventual fate although I'm sure we'd all reap the benefits much later.

This is true, its market niche was with arcade gamers, and this is mostly what I play on it (Virtua Fighter and Daytona USA are some of my favorite Saturn games). There ARE some great RPGs for it though (Albert Odyssey anyone?), but you have to pay an arm and a leg for most of them.

[Retronomy]

Yep, Daytona USA (not championship circuit though, something just feels off to me about it) is one of my top 10 favorite games, and also houses one of my favorite RPGs: Shining The Holy Ark.