Kickstarter "Tropes vs Women in Videogames"

[J T]

It's pretty hard to argue against what she is saying. I was unaware of the Star Fox Adventures take over and found that to be fascinating and upsetting. It's also higher quality commentary on games than we usually see.

[AppleQueso]

It's pretty hard to argue against what she is saying. I was unaware of the Star Fox Adventures take over and found that to be fascinating and upsetting. It's also higher quality commentary on games than we usually see.

She kinda glosses over the fact that Dinosaur Planet always had a male protagonist. The Krystal stuff was probably around half the game, and her and the male protagonist's games were combined into one when Fox became the main character. There's still fair points there (Krystal's redesign is definitely... unfortunate to say the least, along with how she was just turned into a plot macguffin...), but yeah, I wanted to point that out.

[Ack]

So I see she has never played Zelda: The Wand of Gamelon.

*Ahem* That said, she is correct in that this is an extremely dominant trait of early story-based video games. Admittedly it makes sense that it was used in an industry predominantly produced by males who were pulling from classical fantasy or pulp fiction genres, where the trope also dominates, and I think it will be interesting to see how it may have changed or evolved in the years since in her next video on the subject.

But some of her implications bothered me, such as criticizing the rereleasing and remaking of older material for a modern audience to have access to it when a game includes this trope. Yes, the opening of Double Dragon is particularly brutal and degrading toward the female character. But was she arguing that no one should ever play the game again because of that, or that the game has no qualities beyond this? I realize she gave a bit of a disclaimer towards the end, but I still felt she was a bit fuzzy on the point of whether we should be able to even witness this.

Second, yes, it is an easy plot hook for the protagonist to go on his/her journey, but does she feel such a hook should be thrown out entirely? What about a role-reversal? If it were a female rescuing a male character, would she argue that the trope is still a problem, or is it suddenly ok? But that's more an issue I see when discussing gender identity and role: if the argument is made that one gender being depicted as weak is wrong, then is the person speaking arguing in favor of depicting that gender as equal with the other or arguing for a depiction as the "weak" gender to be strong at the expense of the other? If equal, than does she want to see the idea of a kidnapping or some sort of loved one in distress as a primary motivator to be removed entirely from the medium? Because any case where a character is imprisoned in such a way could potentially be viewed through that lens.

Also, having never played Star Fox Adventure, I can say I would much rather have played Dinosaur Planet. That footage looked awesome. What the hell, Nintendo? You could have had a new franchise.

[Hazerd]

Too bad the Likes/Dislikes/Comments are disabled on the youtube videos, would love to see them lol.

[AppleQueso]

Second, yes, it is an easy plot hook for the protagonist to go on his/her journey, but does she feel such a hook should be thrown out entirely? What about a role-reversal? If it were a female rescuing a male character, would she argue that the trope is still a problem, or is it suddenly ok? But that's more an issue I see when discussing gender identity and role: if the argument is made that one gender being depicted as weak is wrong, then is the person speaking arguing in favor of depicting that gender as equal with the other or arguing for a depiction as the "weak" gender to be strong at the expense of the other? If equal, than does she want to see the idea of a kidnapping or some sort of loved one in distress as a primary motivator to be removed entirely from the medium? Because any case where a character is imprisoned in such a way could potentially be viewed through that lens.

I think the problem isn't so much that a damsel in distress is problematic in and of itself, it's the fact that it's so prevalent that's an issue.

Also, having never played Star Fox Adventure, I can say I would much rather have played Dinosaur Planet. That footage looked awesome. What the hell, Nintendo? You could have had a new franchise.

Well, it would've been Rareware's franchise, not Nintendo's. But yeah, I agree.

Too bad the Likes/Dislikes/Comments are disabled on the youtube videos, would love to see them lol.

Honestly, I don't blame her considering the absolutely insane reaction the internet had over her intention to even make these (rape threats, etc.)

[Ack]

Second, yes, it is an easy plot hook for the protagonist to go on his/her journey, but does she feel such a hook should be thrown out entirely? What about a role-reversal? If it were a female rescuing a male character, would she argue that the trope is still a problem, or is it suddenly ok? But that's more an issue I see when discussing gender identity and role: if the argument is made that one gender being depicted as weak is wrong, then is the person speaking arguing in favor of depicting that gender as equal with the other or arguing for a depiction as the "weak" gender to be strong at the expense of the other? If equal, than does she want to see the idea of a kidnapping or some sort of loved one in distress as a primary motivator to be removed entirely from the medium? Because any case where a character is imprisoned in such a way could potentially be viewed through that lens.

I think the problem isn't so much that a damsel in distress is problematic in and of itself, it's the fact that it's so prevalent that's an issue.

Oh, there I agree with her. It was an incredibly overdone trope(I say "was" because her video was focused on previous generations of video games, so I am not including a discussion of the modern era). At best, it was just a simplistic means of getting a story going, which is part of what she argued.

Too bad the Likes/Dislikes/Comments are disabled on the youtube videos, would love to see them lol.

Honestly, I don't blame her considering the absolutely insane reaction the internet had over her intention to even make these (rape threats, etc.).

Now that's both offensive and sexist. Regardless of whether one fully agrees with her, retaliating with that kind of remark only helps to further her point. Plus it's disgusting.

[irixith]

It was enjoyable, though I wish she could detail more her arguments on why the damsel in distress trope is so damning. Most people see it as harmless, specially given the most notable examples of it (it is admittedly just a flimsy justification for gameplay). Well, I can't get too worked up about that...

I bolded the relevant bit in your quote -- the point is exactly that -- most people see it as harmless. That's what the video is supposed to make the viewer question their own perception of (why do we see it as harmless?), not silver spoon it for them. In that regard, I think she has done quite a good job by providing more than enough examples of the trope with decent commentary.

Whether or not she's right is up for debate, but my feeling is that it's definitely an interesting conversation piece.

[J T]

As she gives this whirlwind tour of damsel in distress games, I realize that I'm surprised at how much I have historically loved this sexist trope. I also pride myself on striving to be nonsexist, and I love strong female character leads (and real life strong females), so it surprises me that I still feel like I was heroic when I saved a lot of these princesses. I've never seen it as I was heroic because I was a man, but that's probably because I'm a man, so I just see it as me being heroic, somewhat detached from my gender (though it's really not, I just don't tend to see it). I guess for me, part of what I've always loved about the damsel in distress trope is not so much that the woman is meek, but that the hero that I am playing the role of is so devotedly in love to another that he will risk all life and limb to get her back. If I were a woman, I would like it a lot less because it would be harder to identify with the lead.

One of my absolute favorite gaming stories is Shadow of the Colossus, where the damsel in distress is actually dead/slumbering and only can be revived by the male lead's personal battle against giant Colossi and the self-sacrifice that comes from doing something that is actually of questionable morality (as the giants have a certain ancient dignity and grace and aren't particularly bothering anyone until you run off to slay them). In that use of the trope though, it's actually easier for me to get into because I don't know anything about the woman really. She's deathly slumbering and I want to wake her. I don't know if she is a strong woman or weak woman, and I can assume what I want. What I do know, and what I actually care most about is that my character will risk everything for her, so she must be important to me in whatever way I would imagine her to be important. So perhaps the unconscious damsel in distress is a less offensive variant of the trope because we can ascribe whatever personality and character traits to the woman that we want.

[Hazerd]

Men cant be Men anymore it seems, off the kitchen! (oh wait thats sexist!) even my 90 year old grandmother agrees that men arent men anymore.

[J T]

Men cant be Men anymore it seems, off the kitchen! (oh wait thats sexist!)

Nobody said that, unless your definition of men is that they are sexists.

Actually, I find much of the defensiveness that people have exhibited towards Sarkeesian to be fundamentally unmanly. It shows an unwillingness to be challenged and a fear of self examination and open debate. They look like 'fraidycats. A real "manly" man should be able to have a conversation with a female about the nature of sexism in games without clutching his game cartridges to his chest and screaming "don't criticize these or I'll rape you in the face!"