Wii-U thoughts so far

[isiolia]

Wii games do actually play in 1080p, as do all the menus and anything else. This was a big surprise! I played Goldeneye for a bit and you can see a difference, both good and bad. Some things in game look much smoother from the upscale but mistakes or ugly filters stand out more. The cut scenes looked really gross though! This is because it is an upscale of resolution but no re-rendering is happening, no new filter or anything. This isn't like emulation where new rendering processes can be applied; it is just a resolution increase. So you’ll get good things and bad things from playing Wii games on WiiU, it probably all depends on the game.

From what I've seen elsewhere, it's purely upscaling, not rendering the games at higher resolution than before.

Realistically, unless you're playing in a little box in the middle of the screen, something is upscaling the picture to an HDTV's native resolution. Apparently the Wii U just does a nice job of it internally, at least probably better than a lot of low/mid level AV gear.

IGN did a side by side video here for example.

[KDub]

So what I said?

And I wouldn't consider an HDTV stretching and zooming a 480p signal the same as actual upscaling.

[isiolia]

So what I said?

And I wouldn't consider an HDTV stretching and zooming a 480p signal the same as actual upscaling.

Just clarifying, since you expanded on it to the point where it might seem like it's doing something more.

Some TVs (or AV receivers, as the case may be) have better scalers than others. Doesn't mean the crappy ones don't have one.

[KDub]

It still isn't the same. It is still taking a 480 signal, keeping it 480 and making it fit the screen. There is minimal processing going on to keep it from being too distorted or too cropped but all in all it is just a stretch of the final image at 480.

Actual upscaling takes that 480 signal and pushes it up to a better resolution. Keeping the ratio as similar as possible so none of the actual graphics seem stretched or skewed and allowing for a clearer image (than if it was just a stretch) since it keeps the pixel density as close to the original as possible. This happens either on the hardware level or just via software.

Re-rendering actually modifies the core code being pushed through. Filters are placed on top of that modification.

[isiolia]

It still isn't the same. It is still taking a 480 signal, keeping it 480 and making it fit the screen. There is minimal processing going on to keep it from being too distorted or too cropped but all in all it is just a stretch of the final image at 480.

Actual upscaling takes that 480 signal and pushes it up to a better resolution. Keeping the ratio as similar as possible so none of the actual graphics seem stretched or skewed and allowing for a clearer image (than if it was just a stretch) since it keeps the pixel density as close to the original as possible. This happens either on the hardware level or just via software.
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It's the same thing. The a 480 signal has to be scaled in order to fill the fixed 1920x1080 pixel grid (for example). That's the very definition of upscaling. Obviously, there's plenty of room to do a better or worse job at it, but the process has to be done if you intend to fill the screen.

If you spend time on AV forums, it comes up when considering whether to enable upscaling in the player, in the receiver, have the TV do it, or whatever. Which usually comes down to which one of them does a better job.

If the Wii U does a nice job, then that's great. It's just not necessarily something people with a better scaler in their gear wouldn't get with their existing Wii. Probably why, for example, the IGN video I posted shows very little difference between them.

I know it's not rendering it any differently. It's just resizing it, most likely as a no-cost function of the video encoder like on the 360. If the Wii U actually rerendered Wii games at 1080p, I'd have bought one already

[KDub]

It's the same thing. The a 480 signal has to be scaled in order to fill the fixed 1920x1080 pixel grid (for example). That's the very definition of upscaling. Obviously, there's plenty of room to do a better or worse job at it, but the process has to be done if you intend to fill the screen.

It isn't, not really. If it was the same thing a zoomed/stretched in image that is just being stretched on your TV would look the same as an upscaled one coming from hardware processing. It is three layers of a similar idea.

[MrPopo]

It's the same thing. The a 480 signal has to be scaled in order to fill the fixed 1920x1080 pixel grid (for example). That's the very definition of upscaling. Obviously, there's plenty of room to do a better or worse job at it, but the process has to be done if you intend to fill the screen.

It isn't, not really. If it was the same thing a zoomed/stretched in image that is just being stretched on your TV would look the same as an upscaled one coming from hardware processing. It is three layers of a similar idea.

Same thing, different implementations. The basic stretching a TV does is with simple algorithms, while a nice upscaler uses a more complicated algorithm to get a nicer increase in resolution from the same source.

[kingdomheights777]

I personally use an Onkyo TX-SR607 AV Receiver into a Sharp 70 Inch LED TV, with of course the Wii U plugged into the Onkyo. Both the TV and Onkyo has scalers built in but they never seemed to help worth a damn on the Original Wii (i explain that later.) And to personally honest I am extremely PICKY!, but when i turned on the normal Wii mode i was blown away by the clarity of everything. I went through every Wii game own and was floored one after another at how great they all looked. Whats nuts is that even the N64 VC games looked incredible IMO. Mario64 was more clear and sharp than i have ever seen it. Sin And punishment was great also and the list goes on.
To me, it seems that the "smeared vasoline" look is gone from the picture totally on Wii Mode.

Prior to having the wii u hooked up i had the original Wii hooked up with an HDMI adapter and it looked like a big pile of doo doo, component cables as well. So needless to say my Wii never got used. But all in all the Wii mode on the Wii U is hands down a huge improvement over the original Wii.

[isiolia]

Apparently your Onkyo wouldn't have done much with HDMI video, not sure about component. I was curious to see if it was using something similar to what my Denon has (which is this, or at least the Anchor Bay branded version from before Silicon Image bought them).

Still, nice to hear it's a good picture. PS3 backwards compatibility can be similarly nice. Plus it might help reduce input lag if nothing has to process the signal.

[Cronozilla]

Same thing, different implementations. The basic stretching a TV does is with simple algorithms, while a nice upscaler uses a more complicated algorithm to get a nicer increase in resolution from the same source.

Yes. It's just algorithmic differences. It's the same concept though.

But if you want to distinguish when a basic resizing algorithm is used vs one that is actually intended to improve video quality when being resized ... I suppose you could make some sort of distinction there (Which might be useful in a consumerist view just so people are on the same page ... as long as you define what means what). But, technically, there is no terminology difference based on the technique you use, since you're doing the same abstract thing.

I think most all TVs also scale differently depending on the company, who owns what algorithm patents (screw you software patents), and how much hardware the manufacturer is willing to put in the set.

I don't think ... you're going to find a TV set that can bust out some O(n^2) scaling algorithm or anything, though.

Anyway ... just be aware when making those distinctions ... they're not official, even if they are warranted distinctions to make.