ZenLogikos wrote:BTW, I love Evangelion, and I definitely understand where most people are coming from with their opinions of it, but honestly, it's not that open to interpretation. I don't want to get off on a tangent, but Eva's story is more straightforward than most realize, after you learn about it's dual focus, ie. the psychology of Anno(NGE's creator) plus the show's own mythology.
Yes. *high five for ZenLogikos, the Doctor continues on tangent, somewhat related to topic*
Eva may be inconclusive in the purely narrative sense (especially the original ending), but its meaning and purpose are clearer and more direct than most shows that attempt something above and beyond good storytelling. It certainly never left me wondering what the creator was trying to say.
"Your vessel, your beginning. All that you knew...is gone." - The Guardian of Forever
I don't understand how we have some people that 'didn't understand' the ending. Read the books. It's just about smacking you in the face. Tim was a scientist, reaching for a goal. That goal was converting matter to energy, harnessing the power of the atom. The atom bomb. In the process of achieving that goal, Tim lost his girlfriend/wife, and the respect of his mother (that's still open for debate, i guess). Regardless, it's all in the epilogue. That link that GFL posted explains it pretty well too. Then when getting the final star and 'capturing' the princess, you hear a detonator and a white flash, with an explosion.
They detonated the bomb. This is the 'mistake' that Tim made that he wishes to undo. It's all right there.
indecks wrote:I don't understand how we have some people that 'didn't understand' the ending. Read the books. It's just about smacking you in the face. Tim was a scientist, reaching for a goal. That goal was converting matter to energy, harnessing the power of the atom. The atom bomb. In the process of achieving that goal, Tim lost his girlfriend/wife, and the respect of his mother (that's still open for debate, i guess). Regardless, it's all in the epilogue. That link that GFL posted explains it pretty well too. Then when getting the final star and 'capturing' the princess, you hear a detonator and a white flash, with an explosion.
They detonated the bomb. This is the 'mistake' that Tim made that he wishes to undo. It's all right there.
So I guess my question now would be, how does all this have anything to do with a Mario themed world with little goomba like creatures and plants coming out of pipes.
You see what I mean? This is why I don't like these kinds of stories. Even once you figure it out....it still doesn't make sense.
Well, there's no connection to be made with the level design. I seriously doubt Donkey Kong had something to do with Tim's search for atomic control. The puzzles *themselves* have nothing to do with the story. The end result is what you're trying to get to, but the puzzles are the icing on the cake.
Sorry man, to me it looks like you're just trying to find *something* to hate about this game. First it was the story that didn't make any sense, so it was explained. Now you think the level design not making immediate correlation to the story is the problem.
It just doesn't make any sense to me. Did you have fun getting the puzzle pieces? Yes? Then good.
indecks wrote:Well, there's no connection to be made with the level design. I seriously doubt Donkey Kong had something to do with Tim's search for atomic control. The puzzles *themselves* have nothing to do with the story. The end result is what you're trying to get to, but the puzzles are the icing on the cake.
Sorry man, to me it looks like you're just trying to find *something* to hate about this game. First it was the story that didn't make any sense, so it was explained. Now you think the level design not making immediate correlation to the story is the problem.
It just doesn't make any sense to me. Did you have fun getting the puzzle pieces? Yes? Then good.
What's the problem here?
I never said I hate Braid, and just because something is fun doesn't mean it can't have flaws. I see FAR too many game getting a free pass from video game reviewers these days because of a few things they liked about the game despite MAJOR gameplay flaws(Odin Sphere, Alien Hominid, Shenmue, etc.). Yes, I had fun getting the puzzles pieces. That doesn't mean I think the game is a perfect gaming masterpiece that should not be analyzed or criticized in any way.
I've already said I like the puzzles in Braid so I agree with you there, I also like the music and the watercolor look, but the story has no correlation to the gameplay which makes it a little pretentious in my opinion. It's like they just threw in a completely unrelated story to make the game seem smarter than it is, which is pretty much what pretension is all about IN MY OPINION. The first part of your last post pretty much proves what I'm saying
But some people like the story regardless, and I even posted that link for those people who do like the story so they could get more out of it. I just found that the more I thought about the game's story in retrospect, the less I liked it. So I just came out and said that. I'm not LOOKING for something to hate about the game. Sometimes my opinion about a game can change in retrospect, sometimes it doesn't. I still think the game's puzzles are brilliant though
I'm just discussing the game. What wrong with that? Did I come on here and tell people that Braid is trash and that anyone who likes it is stupid? No, I didn't. You seem to be getting annoyed for no reason.
Gamerforlife wrote:
I'm just discussing the game. What wrong with that? Did I come on here and tell people that Braid is trash and that anyone who likes it is stupid? No, I didn't. You seem to be getting annoyed for no reason.
No, you're looking for ways to hate it. Yes it's a flawed game. So was Super Mario Bros. So was Metroid. So was Link to the Past. So was Symphony of the Night. So was Street Fighter II. Every game has flaws. I'm not getting annoyed, it's just interesting to me that nearly every thread on this board has at least 2 members saying Game X was 'unimpressive', or 'lame' or 'boring' or 'pretentious'. You know these are games right? Just because you're not 14 playing in your mom's basement doesn't mean you have to find every possible angle of expression in every single game. You could just play the game and have fun for an hour or two.
I mean christ, the guy put an arguably cool story into this puzzle/platforming game that he created, and all of a sudden he's pretentious? Pretentious would be something like the movie Happy Feet. A fucking movie about a dancing penguin that all of a sudden turns into a message about globalization and overfishing. All this Blow guy did was make a decently fun time waster that had a cool end to it. It's not pretentious, it's a videogame.
Jesus christ, when did gamers become so jaded? I'm not annoyed, I'm getting depressed by all of the negativity. No one can just 'enjoy' a game anymore.
As someone who was looking forward to this game for a long time and then defended the price when it was announced, I have to weigh in now that I've finally finished it.
GFL and I went a few rounds over the price (all in the name of good discussion, mind you, just like now). But I have to say after the experience has soaked in that I agree with him here.
I "get" the story. I see it, sure. But something's left a bad taste in my mouth and I think it is because Blow's reach exceeded by grasp, and by a long ways. He's put this heavy, "whoa dude" message into a classic blue-sky platformer. And maybe that's his point, i.e. "let's go back to a simpler, happier time before world-destroying weapons were created." Maybe he was going for some kind of cognitive dissonance there, I dunno. That might have worked, IF Blow had come up with a better way to tie these two ends of the spectrum together.
But as it is, the metaphor with the princess and the accompanying story just did not work very well IMO. The princess part was good in theory, but to weigh it down with all this - sorry, but it's true - pretentious, freshman comp, dreary, dopey and overly vague blocks of text just did not convey the message well at all. I think that is because we don't have even the slightest clue where this is heading until the last one or two blocks of text. I think it was pretty clear to anyone who was really thinking about it that the "princess" would not be a girl, but instead some kind of idea or goal. (For a while I thought it was some kind of doll/toy and Tim just wanted to go back to his childhood.) But you aren't given what I would call "clues" or nods or anything. It's just: vague, vague, vague, vague, vague, vague, vague, vague, vague and then BAM -- semi-famous quote from the desert of New Mexico, July 1945. After all the verbal contortionism, what, really, are we supposed to take away from this? Basically all I got from it is "bombs are bad, mmmkay."
One other thing that really bugged me was the paintings you assemble from the puzzle pieces. What do they show? How do they tie in? I read a couple if ideas on GFL's link but frankly it's pretty weak. I assumed these pieces I was working so goddamn hard to get would help bridge the gap and show me a bit more about the double-meaning of it all. I felt let down by that.
Also, I haven't gotten the stars. I see there's part where the princess explodes when you get the last one. As it stands, I haven't even SEEN any stars to get, so I guess that one's over my head, too. I've heard that Blow's favorite movie is Mulholland Drive, if that tells you anything about what he thinks is good storytelling. Personally I think David Lynch is full of shit but I understand many others don't feel that way.
....
All of that said .... I want to shift gears and defend Braid for a moment. Like I said in an earlier post, I'm usually one of those people who likes the analytical stuff -- the stuff most people think is "pretentious." I think games can be art, though most are far from it. A game is NOT art because a few dudes took a lot of time to come up cool character designs and background art. What David Hellman added to his game does not make it art in and of itself. Castle Crashers is gorgeously hand drawn but it is not art IMO. Why? Because art is not a thing, it is not a noun. Art says something about the human condition and makes you think about things for a bit. In that sense, I think Braid is one of the very few games that DO fall into this category. Braid is art, and it is a step in the right direction for the kinds of videogames I would like to see and play. I personally may think Blow stumbled in his attempt, but at least he tried and at least the game is available on a widely commercial platform.
And so to go full circle here, that is why I have no qualms about paying 15 bucks for Braid. The puzzles were fantastic, and I had a wonderful time figuring them out. That the story didn't work out is not that big a deal in the grand scheme of things, because Blow will get to make his next game and I believe we will see more devs with something to say try to push these boundaries in the future.
