I want meatier main stories in my openworld sandbox games

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ZeroAX
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I want meatier main stories in my openworld sandbox games

Post by ZeroAX »

I really like 3rd person action open world sandbox games (GTA clones as they used to be called). I enjoy both their freedom when it comes to exploring the world and setting the pace at which you will tackle the game's main storyline, and the way their missions give you some more confined structure (Minecraft is amazing of course, but personally I just prefer a few more goals in my gameplay experience).

The past generation has given us some amazing games in this genre (infamous 1&2, assasin's creed 2, saint's row 1&2 are some of my top games this gen). But unfortunately it has also started another trend which makes me worried. Replacing meaningful central story line content with mindless side missions.

Assasin's Creed Brotherhood and Revelations were VERY guilty of this (the maps was so cluttered from all the races and other side missions), Mercenaries 2 Saint's Row 3 and Red Faction Guerilla and Just Cause 2 had the basis for an amazing open world action game, but the developers just didn't do anything meaningful with them. They just spread the map with side missions, and then pieced some of them together to make a weak central storyline.

It makes the game feel weak, it becomes boring after a while and it doesn't make me want to continue playing. It also doesn't help that in their effort to woo you into the game right at the start (to seem amazing at the demo maybe?) they give you all the best toys at the start, which makes the feeling of escalation of power (and enjoyment) feel hollow.

If the storyline is weak, if I already have so many amazing stories, if I can explore the entire map right away, why should I waste time playing the central game? I'll just do the sandbox stuff.

But the side missions are always weak. I think developers have confused quantity with quality. Saying your game has 15 different types of side missions and about 300 of them in total, does not mean that makes your game amazing. It makes it bland and boring.

What made GTA, and those other games I mentioned good, other than the engaging storyline and the good pacing in giving you more areas and "toys", is that the side stuff was less but more well developed.

Case study: GTA San Andreas and the Assasin Creed games. They both had racing side missions (let's just for a minute not focus on the fact that one is on foot and the other is on wheels. infamous had on foot races that were amazing too, but were far too few and well....I don't know how many people here have played that game).

SA's racing missions are few, they are well designed ,the "tracks" are interesting, the checkpoints are put in places where it makes sense, the races are fun and if you fail you don't feel cheated, you feel like you have to do better.

In the Assasin Creed games, they have many more races but they are so badly made. There aren't any special places to climb/jump too to get to the checkpoints faster like in infamous. Instead you have an approach that feels like they first made the city, and then added the races in random places and put the checkpoints wherever. Many times I would get lost during a race because I was following the course the game was "pushing me" to, cause I thought that at the end of the roof there would be somewhere else to jump too, cause it makes "sense". But it doesn't, cause the buildings weren't designed to serve the purpose of the race side missions.



So we end up with weaker bloated games that personally disappoint me. I wish developers would focus more on the main storyline missions, and only make side missions if they feel they will be fun. Then invest more in making those side missions good, and make sure the world is designed around them, not them designed around the world.




So does anyone else feel like this? Any good action sandbox games I should try that are more to my liking? (meaty story, quality side missions, and of course big interesting world to explore :D)
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brunoafh
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Re: I want meatier main stories in my openworld sandbox game

Post by brunoafh »

Sounds like you need some Yakuza in your life. The amount of story content in those games puts the games you mentioned to shame. There's also a substantial amount of gameplay content as well, some of the games in the series take the upwards of 80 hours to 100%.
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Re: I want meatier main stories in my openworld sandbox game

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brunoafh wrote:Sounds like you need some Yakuza in your life. The amount of story content in those games puts the games you mentioned to shame. There's also a substantial amount of gameplay content as well, some of the games in the series take the upwards of 80 hours to 100%.
Are they vast enough though? They always seemed kind of....restricted to me. I guess I want that balance where I am compelled to keep playing the main storyline, but the world itself is interesting enough to take some time off to explore it.

Well....... I own those games anyway :oops: , so I will try them out one day.

EDIT

Also this isn't just a "recommend me games" thread, it's in general about to discuss what I see as game design flaws in modern sandbox games.
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Re: I want meatier main stories in my openworld sandbox game

Post by brunoafh »

ZeroAX wrote:Are they vast enough though? They always seemed kind of....restricted to me. I guess I want that balance where I am compelled to keep playing the main storyline, but the world itself is interesting enough to take some time off to explore it.
The sandboxes the games take place in are rather small in scope, but the games are so incredibly packed full of content that it's hardly an issue. The worlds are extremely detailed and concise, rather than very large with points of interest only here and there and the main attraction being getting distracted randomly killing people.
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Re: I want meatier main stories in my openworld sandbox game

Post by Xeogred »

I hear you a bit on this issue. Used to love city sandbox games, but some of the last few I've played have left me feeling pretty underwhelmed. I'm gonna have to say that Saints Row 3 was nothing compared to Saints Row 2 in my book, story/content wise and everything.

Sleeping Dogs just might be perfect for you... and me? I haven't played it myself, but it looks damn good. That and I hear it's a bit more straightforward with less to do on the sides, which is kind of appealing to me after something like Saints Row 3. So perhaps it has more time to focus on narrative, rather than random junk littered everywhere. That's fine and all, but yeah I tend to like a good narrative myself to keep me going. Check it out, the combat for a game of its style looks amazingly fun, plus it's in Hong Kong too so I imagine the setting is pretty sweet.

So who knows, look into that one, I think I might sometime soon too.
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Re: I want meatier main stories in my openworld sandbox game

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Xeogred wrote:I hear you a bit on this issue. Used to love city sandbox games, but some of the last few I've played have left me feeling pretty underwhelmed. I'm gonna have to say that Saints Row 3 was nothing compared to Saints Row 2 in my book, story/content wise and everything.

Sleeping Dogs just might be perfect for you... and me? I haven't played it myself, but it looks damn good. That and I hear it's a bit more straightforward with less to do on the sides, which is kind of appealing to me after something like Saints Row 3. So perhaps it has more time to focus on narrative, rather than random junk littered everywhere. That's fine and all, but yeah I tend to like a good narrative myself to keep me going. Check it out, the combat for a game of its style looks amazingly fun, plus it's in Hong Kong too so I imagine the setting is pretty sweet.

So who knows, look into that one, I think I might sometime soon too.
haha again I see our gaming taste is very similar :P. I actually downloaded the demo for Sleeping Dogs on the PC, but the thing runs like shit (horrible optimization, but then again it's a SquareEnix published game, so what did I expect). I will try the demo on my PS3 too, when it is available to me again, to see if it's as good as they say.

And yeah, Saint's Row 3 is quite the heart breaker. The first one was a good and fun game, not on par with the GTA games. The second one was very good, it finally got what made GTA so good (not to mentioned it benefited from being released after the gritty and boring GTA 4, which as you have seen I have not mentioned at all in the article), but 3 was a mess. They really didn't understand what made their previous games so liked to begin with. Random chaos is only fun if it's the desert, not the main dish.
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Re: I want meatier main stories in my openworld sandbox game

Post by J T »

I just started Sleeping Dogs. It might be what you are looking for. I think it's a bit linear, but it disguises it by having such a rich city and things that you ostensibly could explore, but that seem like a waste of time given your mission objectives (like 'chase this guy' or 'hurry up before someone gets killed').

I'm not sure if your stated problem is something I see as a problem though. I think less story is usually better in a sandbox game because you are supposed to be creating the story yourself with all the freedom you have. I think developers need to find a way to reward people's imaginations in these games. I love reading things like the Minecraft Experiment diaries or the Skyrim Week of Madness diaries that have players telling their own unique stories. It would be great if a developer could set up the tools to allow others to share their tales, or to help encourage them to craft their own, perhaps by using something like the narratore in Bastion that comments on what you are doing.

I think a linear story is helped by creating some illusions of freedom so it doesn't feel just like a journey down a corridor, but I think an open world with massive freedom is not the best place to tell a concrete, well fleshed out story. The goals of giving you an interesting place to play in or pushing you through a narrative seem at odds with each other.
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ZeroAX
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Re: I want meatier main stories in my openworld sandbox game

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J T wrote:I just started Sleeping Dogs. It might be what you are looking for. I think it's a bit linear, but it disguises it by having such a rich city and things that you ostensibly could explore, but that seem like a waste of time given your mission objectives (like 'chase this guy' or 'hurry up before someone gets killed').

I'm not sure if your stated problem is something I see as a problem though. I think less story is usually better in a sandbox game because you are supposed to be creating the story yourself with all the freedom you have. I think developers need to find a way to reward people's imaginations in these games. I love reading things like the Minecraft Experiment diaries or the Skyrim Week of Madness diaries that have players telling their own unique stories. It would be great if a developer could set up the tools to allow others to share their tales, or to help encourage them to craft their own, perhaps by using something like the narratore in Bastion that comments on what you are doing.

I think a linear story is helped by creating some illusions of freedom so it doesn't feel just like a journey down a corridor, but I think an open world with massive freedom is not the best place to tell a concrete, well fleshed out story. The goals of giving you an interesting place to play in or pushing you through a narrative seem at odds with each other.
Perhaps I lost myself in thoughts when writing the original post and got off track. I too believe that games like Skyrim and Minecraft are amazing experiences. But they are not the same type of games as GTA, Just Cause, Assasin's Creed ect.

Skyrim and Minecraft give you great freedom (minecraft gives you absolute freedom imo)

The games I'm mentioning don't really give you freedom. They give you an open area, you can tackle things at your own pace, but if you want to "advance", cause there IS a set of goals you must achieve, you have to do the story missions. My problem is that instead of focusing on making those story missions memorable and high quality, adding a few fun quality side missions to spend some time doing when you want to take a break from the main story, and design the game world around those things, so everything fits in place like a brilliantly designed puzzle.

Instead they focus on just making a big detailed game world (by detail I mean graphical details, not stuff to do in them. GTA SA took more care of having stuff placed all over the map, so players who take the time to explore the game world would be in for some surprises. And by stuff I don't just mean collectables ofc), even if it doesn't serve the needs of the main or side missions, and then just spread endless numbers of samey boring side missions all over the map (as I said the last 2 Assasin's Creed games are really guilty of this).

Instead I would like them to take more time developing good main story missions, making sure the side missions are interesting, fun and unique (which ofc means there must be less of them, or the budget will have to triple) and DESIGN the game world around the MISSIONS, and not the other way around like it feels to me right now (there are many times when I played some of t he "bad" games I mentioned were I got the feeling that the gameworld was getting in the way of the fun, as in this area of the game wasn't designed to house said mission).


So you see I am really just complaining about the more structured sandbox games which replace quality for quantity. For example if Skyrim just replaced all the different options it gives you with 5000 quests of "go and kill 10 boars/toads/bats/dragons/dogs/whatever" you wouldn't call that additional content right?

But again, bringing skyrim into this is wrong cause it's a very different game.

I hope I made myself more clear :)
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Re: I want meatier main stories in my openworld sandbox game

Post by Satoshi_Matrix »

Just to be the voice of opposition, open world games do NOT need stories to be good.

Case and point: Crackdown 1 for Xbox 360.

It is the best open world game I've ever played, yet has the most minimal plot possible, because plot would simply get in the way.

GO play Crackdown and maybe it would change your mind.
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Re: I want meatier main stories in my openworld sandbox game

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Satoshi_Matrix wrote:Just to be the voice of opposition, open world games do NOT need stories to be good.

Case and point: Crackdown 1 for Xbox 360.

It is the best open world game I've ever played, yet has the most minimal plot possible, because plot would simply get in the way.

GO play Crackdown and maybe it would change your mind.
Played it, fun for 30 minutes, boring as hell afterwards.
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