Homosexuality

[mjmjr25]

I assure you, divorce and children out of wedlock are as displeasing to God as homosexual acts. It just isn’t as fun to report on the news, apparently.

You are missing the point. Of course both are equally displeasing to the church, but the church is not making concerted political efforts to make divorce, illegitimate children, etc. illegal under secular law. They are doing this with same-sex marriage. It was never a debate about what they focus on in the pulpit, it was about how their disapproval gets voiced. For same-sex marriage, that disapproval is VERY public and carries legislative entailments.

Also, does your mom do what is sometimes referred to as "pray away the gay" type of counseling? The same kind of thing fellow-Minesotean Michelle Bachman's husband does?

You are missing the point. What is this Church you refer to? Is it the Catholic Church, or some "Mega-Church". It is not the Church I refer to - the Church I refer to doesn't picket and doesn't do interviews - this is the Christian understanding of the Church, not apparently yours or the medias. And...who are "They"? Is it the same "They" is when "we" refer to muslims who want to kill and maim Christians/Jews/Americans. You are smarter than that, David. Because some muslims burn flags and make videos that they want to kill Christians, does that mean that all Muslims want to murder Christians? Of course not, but popular news coverage would show us large swaths of muslim youths burning flags and chanting Death to America. So now "They" all hate Christians/Americans becomes the consensus of the reactionary and uneducated. This is silly, I struggle to believe you truly believe what you just inferred. Wow. As I stated, there are more conversations regarding divorce in local churches than homesexual marriage. Being on MSNBC or CNN does not make it a priority in my life, or millions of other Christians. Unfortunately real topics covered in local Churches isn't "newsworthy". My sermon last week was on "Fear" and what Christ teaches us about "Fear" and associated "Stress". I just don't think it will make the news tonight.

And thank you for cementing my point - you use a media created term "pray away the gay" to make something positive sound negative. Sad.

My mother, and I, and most practicing Christians pray for anyone struggling with temporal temptations that are displeasing to God. My mother prays for me everyday that i'm not tempted to drink, gamble, or be filled with anger, among other things.

[Breetai]

You are missing the point. Of course both are equally displeasing to the church, but the church is not making concerted political efforts to make divorce, illegitimate children, etc. illegal under secular law. They are doing this with same-sex marriage. It was never a debate about what they focus on in the pulpit, it was about how their disapproval gets voiced. For same-sex marriage, that disapproval is VERY public and carries legislative entailments.

Divorce is legally allowed under certain circumstances Biblically. Why would any church group actively try to make that illegal when there is sometimes grounds for it?

Outside-of-marital sex, which can produce "illegitimate children" is actively promoted against in any church that I have seen. Hard to make a political effort against it, though, when it cannot be politically stopped. So of course there is not converted political effort illegal!

Same-sex marriage does get that effort to stop it, because it is something that is not legal everywhere and could be kept that way.

Not rocket science.

You might also want to figure out what you mean by "the church." It seems you are grossly generalizing things.



*seems MJ put my thoughts into words well before me. I'll go back to lurking now.

[dsheinem]

The Church I refer to doesn't picket and doesn't do interviews - this is the Christian understanding of the Church, not apparently yours or the medias.

The public face of making same-sex marriage illegal is almost solely Christian organizations with deep roots either formally or informally in physical churches/denominations. This is indisputable. When I am referring to "the church" I am referring to "the church" in the Biblical sense of the term and as it exists in the United States.

Being on MSNBC or CNN does not make it a priority in my life, or millions of other Christians.

It may not be a priority to you, but you also aren't doing anything to silence those representatives of your religion who are making it a priority to them because you agree with them.

And thank you for cementing my point - you use a media created term "pray away the gay" to make something positive sound negative. Sad.

Is "homosexual counseling" not, essentially, lots of biblical discussion that ends in a prayerful repepntance/plea for help? It might be a media slogan, but in my experience it is a pretty accurate summary of the process. It is also not in any way "something positive" and I have nothing but the highest disdain for this type of "counseling" which is nothing short of psychological abuse.

American Medical Association (2003)
“Our AMA opposes the use of ‘reparative’ or ‘conversion’ therapy that is based on the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the a priori assumption that the patient should change his/her homosexual orientation.”

American Psychoanalytic Association (2000)
“Psychoanalytic technique does not encompass purposeful efforts to ‘convert’ or ‘repair’ an individual’s sexual orientation. Such directed efforts are against fundamental principles of psychoanalytic treatment and often result in substantial psychological pain by reinforcing damaging internalized homophobic attitudes.”

American Psychiatric Association (1998)
“The American Psychiatric Association opposes any psychiatric treatment, such as reparative or conversion therapy, which is based upon the assumption that homosexuality per se is a mental disorder or based upon the priori assumption that a patient should change his/her sexual homosexual orientation.” The APA removed homosexuality from its list of disorders in 1973.

EDIT: You also never answered that question from yesterday as to whether or not I had correctly characterized the 4-5 central points of your position.

[mjmjr25]

For years Rick Santorum was your public face as a citizen of Pennsylvania. So I am to assume you agreed with everything he said and did? I'm struggling (badly) with your association. There are some really bad Christian organizations. There are some really good Christian organizations that are misguided at times. I'm not sure how to respond to such generalities. There are 7.2 billion of us, a couple hundred groups with a couple thousand members do not a majority make. You've heard from what, 7 or 8 Christians in this thread, yeah? From all areas of the country and all walks of life. Have any of them said banning gay marriage is among the top priorities in their life? Have any of them said they hate homosexuals? No and no. Yet you continue, irresponsibly if I may, contend that the hateful view of what you see on TV is the view of the majority of Christians, despite every Christian on this forum telling you it isn't. It's really mindboggling at this point. "But, but, but, I saw a group of Christians on TV and they had signs a big famous preacher...". We agree, yes, you saw that. I see things on TV everyday that at first blush would appear as majority of a sect...but because i'm not a sheep, I'm able to move past something I saw, with get this, the intention of drawing ratings! TV / News / Web media is all money-driven, you know this. I'm repeating, but i'm really surprised at how little deep thinking is going on here.

Do you accept homosexuality may be displeasing to God?
Do you accept cursing the Lords name in anger to be displeasing to God?
Do you accept lusting after children may be displeasing to God?

You can find quotes all day from scientists or psychiatrists - i'm not understanding the point. If something is displeasing to God, it should be counseled.

[Ack]

Interesting topic. There have been sone excellent discussion in here. I have a question concerning legalization of same-sex marriage and the current rate of divorce in the United States. I find that the idea of marriage in the United States is generally not considered sacred or even truly seriously, hence the massive divorce rates we see undermining the institution. Regardless of the reasons for those rates, if same-sex marriage were to be legalized and actually led to an improvement of the divorce rate, could this not be seen as a victory? I mean, if we take a moment to not examine homosexuality as a sin but instead used the occasion to bolster the idea of marriage based on mutual love and understanding and could then turn that into a means by which marriage was taken more seriously and thereby strengthened, would this not mean a victory in some sense for the institution as a whole? I realize this is a tougher question to consider, as it requires the allowance of a supposed sin (to placate both sides I said supposed), and sins are weighted equally...but if it bolsters a damaged institution, then could it in some manner be considered a good thing, or at least a necessary evil?

[Hobie-wan]

Matthew 7:17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them.

Presumably this is why many straight Christian parents are so terrified and angry if their child turns out to be gay and thus think it is a choice.

I don't think I've seen anyone throw those parents 'into the fire' though.

[dsheinem]

For years Rick Santorum was your public face as a citizen of Pennsylvania. So I am to assume you agreed with everything he said and did? I'm struggling (badly) with your association. There are some really bad Christian organizations. There are some really good Christian organizations that are misguided at times. I'm not sure how to respond to such generalities. There are 7.2 billion of us, a couple hundred groups with a couple thousand members do not a majority make. You've heard from what, 7 or 8 Christians in this thread, yeah? From all areas of the country and all walks of life. Have any of them said banning gay marriage is among the top priorities in their life? Have any of them said they hate homosexuals? No and no. Yet you continue, irresponsibly if I may, contend that the hateful view of what you see on TV is the view of the majority of Christians, despite every Christian on this forum telling you it isn't. It's really mindboggling at this point. "But, but, but, I saw a group of Christians on TV and they had signs a big famous preacher...". We agree, yes, you saw that. I see things on TV everyday that at first blush would appear as majority of a sect...but because i'm not a sheep, I'm able to move past something I saw, with get this, the intention of drawing ratings! TV / News / Web media is all money-driven, you know this. I'm repeating, but i'm really surprised at how little deep thinking is going on here.

I get that the media focuses on the most vocal elements of any controversial issue. That's, again, irrelevant here. I am interested in how the non-vocal "disapproving" Christians give voice/action to that disapproval. They generally do it by supporting or not opposing those vocal groups of their brethren for whom same-sex marriage is a major issue.

As a Pennsylvanian, Rick Santorum's political career is an embarrassment that I have taken every opportunity to try and end. I have voted against him, argued with supporters of his, pointed out his idiocy and bigotry to anyone who would listen, and generally made it clear that I do not agree with someone who claimed to represent me.

By contrast, the 99% or whatever of the "silent" Christians for whom you claim have little interest in the topic do nothing to silence very mainstream Christian groups like Focus on the Family, the American Family Association, the Exodus foundation, etc. That's because you agree with them, and while they don't "hate" homosexuals they sure do promote policies that promote legal discrimination against them.

Do you accept homosexuality may be displeasing to God?
Do you accept cursing the Lords name in anger to be displeasing to God?
Do you accept lusting after children may be displeasing to God?

I don't see what you are getting at here. The latter two are very clearly defined as sins, and as we've demonstrated the first one is extremely contestable in the context of the scriptures themselves.

You can find quotes all day from scientists or psychiatrists - i'm not understanding the point. If something is displeasing to God, it should be counseled.

Even if these quotes reinforce that such counseling is largely unsuccessful in what it tries to do and usually has harmful effects on the psychological state of those being counseled? Would you pay attention to reports about these organizations if it concerned counseling techniques about some non-religous-tinged issue that a loved one was going through? I don't know, man - if you won't accept medical, scientific evidence of someone being harmed by a particular technique as reason to stop it then I am not sure what we can really see eye to eye on anything.

[Erik_Twice]

If something is displeasing to God, it should be counseled.

Well, my God finds your religion to be silly and displeasing. Should we do away with it, because my God says so? What makes you more entitled to decide what people should do than those people? Or should we trample over their own beliefs because they don't matter?

[MrPopo]

If something is displeasing to God, it should be counseled.

Well, my God finds your religion to be silly and displeasing. Should we do away with it, because my God says so? What makes you more entitled to decide what people should do than those people? Or should we trample over their own beliefs because they don't matter?

This, in a nutshell. If your personal religious convictions say that it is a sin to engage in homosexual behavior then by all means, YOU can decide to not engage in it. You have no business imposing your religious convictions on me, however. Again, as I said before, you have exactly as much evidence for your religion being right as a Hindu has for his religion being right and as an atheist has for his lack of religion being right.

[mjmjr25]

If something is displeasing to God, it should be counseled.

Well, my God finds your religion to be silly and displeasing. Should we do away with it, because my God says so? What makes you more entitled to decide what people should do than those people? Or should we trample over their own beliefs because they don't matter?

This, in a nutshell. If your personal religious convictions say that it is a sin to engage in homosexual behavior then by all means, YOU can decide to not engage in it. You have no business imposing your religious convictions on me, however. Again, as I said before, you have exactly as much evidence for your religion being right as a Hindu has for his religion being right and as an atheist has for his lack of religion being right.

@General Norris: I don't know of any "God" in any religion who find things silly.

I didn't pick my faith from a hat. There are many religions. There is one true religion. That will be offensive to anyone whom isn't an adherent. I'm sorry to offend, unintended as it is. We are aware and prepared to combat false prophets, no matter the guise.

@Popo: If you believed that doing something was displeasing to your God, to the only thing that truly mattered in your life, and there were those who said, "You are wrong, it isn't displeasing, I think this particular thing should be legitmized and destigmatized." You wouldn't speak your conscience? You wouldn't be disturbed that your children will be exposed to a an act you believe immoral, but legitimized in some fashion? You don't see how that would affect those you care about? Take it a step further in my case, I don't care only about my children, I care about all people and I don't have any doubts that homosexuality is displeasing to God. Any attempts to legitimize and follow the mantra that "it doesn't effect you, stay out of it" do not hold water. All sin affects all man.

To you there is no proof. I have proof everyday. My goodness, I can't fathom how one can look at the heavens, the cellular structure of their body, the cause and effect of one thing on the other, the power of the human mind and the spirit of the human soul, and NOT see the proof. I mean really, it's all just particles crashing into each other and things just turned out? There is no creator? I mean, this is off-topic here, but when someone says I have no proof, the proof is in front you. It is neurons sending signals from your brain to your fingers. It is everything you do, the proof is everything you are. We are so perfectly created that the very simple becomes so complex we fight what is in front of us.

@Dsh, so now, per your words, "Focus on the Family" and the AFA are mainstream. This is contradictory to the way you've been portraying them. Either they are radical fringe elemets or they are the mainstream thought? You'd have to give me a quote from Dobson or Warren to argue against, it would be irresponsible to say most Christians, or myself, agree or disagree with such a general concern of yours. But before we even do that...its futile. You may find a hateful comment or a misguided comment, you may find dozens of them. They are men who may or may not be speaking in and through Christ - only God knows for sure. So finding a poor stance or unfortunate comment of theirs does nothing to the whole of Christianity. You seem to want to throw out the baby with the bathwater here. I don't think what you are looking for can be appeased in this instance. You want to wholly condemn something and lump it in with racism, et al.

You state lusting for children is clearly a sin. Yet lusting for a member of the same sex is not? There are more references to homosexual acts and perversion than pedophilia. So why do you so easily say one is a sin and one is not? Likely, because you find pedophilia abhorrent - that isn't fair though, you just changed the criteria. If it suits your belief system, then you are now willing to accept that is a sin. If it doesn't, then you continue to argue against it?

You want everything spelled out, black and white. That is not belief or faith. Blessed are those who have not seen, and yet still believe. It is a hard thing to do, but you want it to be easy. Not the way it works.