Homosexuality

[dsheinem]

I know you keep saying "I'm not a pastor" but it is hard to debate specific points of theology with you if you won't cite chapter/verse or explain things beyond "because God and the church say so".

Of course not all the OT is overturned by the NT, but on the other hand the NT is the not "pretty clear on this" so it is a debatable point.

Because I don't have these verses memorized, I'm not all that motivated to memorize verses associated with this since it doesn't really bother me as much as it seems to others. But I've most definetly heard them before, and I didn't want to go and look them up, but if you insist, here's the one that I was talking about:

Leviticus 18:22 (NIV) "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

"Detestable" is a pretty strong word.

Leviticus bans all kinds of things that I am sure you have no problem with. The new testament is largely understood as an overturning specifically of the kinds of things written in those earliest books of Moses. I'm sure most Biblical scholars would agree that citing it as theological grounds for contemporary beliefs/actions is ignorant of the "new covenant" mjm referenced.

[BurningDoom]

What's ironic about this conversation is that I've been on the other side of it during my younger years.

I hope you find yourself on that other side again. I say this with no malice but there is a growing under current of religious activism in this country lately predicated a "We believe we are right so we are right and you cannot tell us otherwise" mentality like what you are espousing.

Nothing scares the shit out of secularists and non-Christians like myself than that type of movement.

Back on topic though:

Gay guys in the Navy = the most useful people ever when you are at sea, get promoted, and you need someone who can sew a rank patch on.

I thought I've made it quite clear that I don't believe we have the right to tell anyone else what to do and that as Christians we should be accepting of them because Jesus would have been. I'm not anti-gay nor am I behind any activisim. The issue what brought up as to whether homosexuality is a sin or not, which I said the Bible says it is.

[BurningDoom]

I know you keep saying "I'm not a pastor" but it is hard to debate specific points of theology with you if you won't cite chapter/verse or explain things beyond "because God and the church say so".

Of course not all the OT is overturned by the NT, but on the other hand the NT is the not "pretty clear on this" so it is a debatable point.

Because I don't have these verses memorized, I'm not all that motivated to memorize verses associated with this since it doesn't really bother me as much as it seems to others. But I've most definetly heard them before, and I didn't want to go and look them up, but if you insist, here's the one that I was talking about:

Leviticus 18:22 (NIV) "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

"Detestable" is a pretty strong word.

Leviticus bans all kinds of things that I am sure you have no problem with. The new testament is largely understood as an overturning specifically of the kinds of things written in those earliest books of Moses. I'm sure most Biblical scholars would agree that citing it as theological grounds for contemporary beliefs/actions is ignorant of the "new covenant" mjm referenced.

Okay. You're right, I do eat Bacon.

But what about the Ten Commandments? Those are definitely keepers no matter what branch of Christianity or Catholicism you come from. And one of them is to not commit adultery. The Bible only condones sexual relations between a man and his wife. Any other sexual relations is considered adultery if we're talking the Bible.

[dsheinem]

The Bible only condones sexual relations between a man and his wife. Any other sexual relations is considered adultery if we're talking the Bible.

I think you just made the Biblical case for gay marriage.

[Flake]

But what about the Ten Commandments? Those are definitely keepers no matter what branch of Christianity or Catholicism you come from. And one of them is to not commit adultery. The Bible only condones sexual relations between a man and his wife. Any other sexual relations is considered adultery if we're talking the Bible.

I don't think that one holds a lot of water.

[BurningDoom]

The Bible only condones sexual relations between a man and his wife. Any other sexual relations is considered adultery if we're talking the Bible.

I think you just made the Biblical case for gay marriage.

Well except for the part about man and wife. But Marriage is not a concept that is uniquely Christian, so we really have no right to tell anyone who can or can't get married, and even if it was, I mean, who cares. I just try my best to not commit too many sins myself. I don't worry if you or joe blow are sinning, that's between you and your beliefs.

[mjmjr25]

But the Bible is a book - the version you have has been translated, added to, subtracted from, altered...and always for the benefit of the person who was doing the changing. The words you hear spoken from the pulpit are not the direct word of God - they are the words of another person who is just as flawed, imperfect, selfish, and wonderful as anyone else. The bible and the church are not your faith - they are tools of your religion.

Left for an hour, so i'm a bit behind here. My wife wanted to read what took away her hubby's evening

Most Christians believe the authors of the bible to be writing from the hand of God, through God, and with His divine intervention. "Many" not all, pastors / ministers are working in and through Christ, and thus a direct link to God. The argument above isn't applicable.

The translations you refer to, are not as porous as you are suggesting. Some bibles translate to make for an easier read, as this is a way to reach a broader populace, the original text can be a hard read. Some translations are simply language translations. As Michael Savage says, "In Latin there are 20 words for english word "love". I guess the Latins could differentiate between a woman's butt and a piece of pizza." <----Meaning, sure some exact phrases are a bit off, but the meaning rarely changes. Saying something was a light purplish red and something was pink, sound very different, but they are in essence the same thing. Your argument would suggest the varying bibles in wide use suggest in one version it says X is black, and in the other it says X is white. That is not the case.

[dsheinem]

But Marriage is not a concept that is uniquely Christian, so we really have no right to tell anyone who can or can't get married

But just a moment ago you were saying you trust the church's teachings...yet almost every major denomination teaches that same-sex marriage should be lobbied/voted against and many spend (and/or make) quite a lot of money doing it. So when is the church right, when is the Bible right, and when does neither apply?

[Flake]

Your argument would suggest the varying bibles in wide use suggest in one version it says X is black, and in the other it says X is white. That is not the case.

Having been a professional translator in the past, I have to tell you how easy it is to skew the meaning of something through subtle word choices. Translating a book these days is no big deal but think about the King James days or Erasmus: It was a huge undertaking involving large amounts of time, money, and man power. You had to have patronage to do that kind of thing and in that instance the patron's view point is going to be the one thought of when those word choices are made.

I don't know if the bible is or isn't the word of God anymore than I know if God does or doesn't exist. But I can say with a great degree of certainty that the versions floating around currently are not the word of God verbatim.

BTW: It's worth reading the last few pages to catch up. It's been an interesting conversation.

[mjmjr25]

@dsh,

You mentioned the seminary track you were on earlier and what everyone thought would happen. I want to ask you a serious question, do you believe you ever fully gave yourself to Christ, or maybe followed a path you were expected to follow?

But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1 Corinthians 2:14