Homosexuality

[flex wood]

Ok I'm sunburned and tired but I've read this whole thread over the course of the day and I am not trying to offend anyone with what I'm about to say but here goes...

Remember when interracial marriage was illegal? A lot of Christians did not want it to become legal and they used their religious beliefs as a reason as too why it should stay outlawed. That is what the whole anti-gay marriage reminds me of. It is discrimination to say some people can get married and some others can't. That is black and white (no pun intended.) Everyone should have equal protection under the law we can all agree on that right?

Yes I understand that many people here think that homosexuality is a sin but why does that mean it should be discriminated?

[dsheinem]

Sodom and Gomorrah being the biggest example, and Noah's sons looking on their father while naked being another.

A) neither of these morality tales is about homosexuality (S&G is about a host of sins, chief of which are being inhospitable and engaging in lust and the Noah story is more about respect for one's parents and is sometimes interpreted as being about race, not sex)

B) The OT teachings on most matters are "replaced" in Christianity by the NT. That's why we are debating Corinthians and not Leviticus in this thread.

[BurningDoom]

Sodom and Gomorrah being the biggest example, and Noah's sons looking on their father while naked being another.

A) neither of these morality tales is about homosexuality (S&G is about a host of sins, chief of which are being inhospitable and engaging in lust and the Noah story is more about respect for one's parents and is sometimes interpreted as being about race, not sex)

B) The OT teachings on most matters are "replaced" in Christianity by the NT. That's why we are debating Corinthians and not Leviticus in this thread.

A) Yes, it is about homosexuality, and many other sins as well including rape, adultry, idol-worship, and a whole host of other stuff in regards to Sodom and Gomorrah. There is a verse (which again, I'm not a pastor so I don't know the exact numbers, sorry) that talks about not lying with a man as you do a woman because it's detestable in God's eyes. The church and Bible are pretty clear on this and I as a Christian try not to question what God or the Bible says. However if you aren't Christian and don't subscribe to those beliefs, then you're free to believe however you want.

B) That is absolutely not true in Christianity except for the things that specifically change due to fulfilling prophecy and Jesus becoming the new lamb for our sin-sacrifice. It's not like we just decided to ignore the OT. I mean come on, the Ten Commandments.

Like in my original post I subscribe to "Hate the sin, don't hate the sinner," for my stance on all of it. I'm not about to block anyone's rights due to my own beliefs.

[Flake]

The church and Bible are pretty clear on this and I as a Christian try not to question what God or the Bible says. However if you aren't Christian and don't subscribe to those beliefs, then you're free to believe however you want.

Your faith is obviously important to you. That being the case, doesn't it warrant you questioning what you are told to believe? How can you truly have your own understanding of your spiritual side if you don't put some thought into it? Or did this phrase just come out clumsily?

[dsheinem]

Sodom and Gomorrah being the biggest example, and Noah's sons looking on their father while naked being another.

A) neither of these morality tales is about homosexuality (S&G is about a host of sins, chief of which are being inhospitable and engaging in lust and the Noah story is more about respect for one's parents and is sometimes interpreted as being about race, not sex)

B) The OT teachings on most matters are "replaced" in Christianity by the NT. That's why we are debating Corinthians and not Leviticus in this thread.

A) Yes, it is about homosexuality, and many other sins as well including rape, adultry, idol-worship, and a whole host of other stuff in regards to Sodom and Gomorrah. There is a verse (which again, I'm not a pastor so I don't know the exact numbers, sorry) that talks about not lying with a man as you do a woman because it's detestable in God's eyes. The church and Bible are pretty clear on this and I as a Christian try not to question what God or the Bible says. However if you aren't Christian and don't subscribe to those beliefs, then you're free to believe however you want.

B) That is absolutely not true in Christianity except for the things that specifically change due to fulfilling prophecy and Jesus becoming the new lamb for our sin-sacrifice. It's not like we just decided to ignore the OT. I mean come on, the Ten Commandments.

Like in my original post I subscribe to "Hate the sin, don't hate the sinner," for my stance on all of it. I'm not about to block anyone's rights due to my own beliefs.

I know you keep saying "I'm not a pastor" but it is hard to debate specific points of theology with you if you won't cite chapter/verse or explain things beyond "because God and the church say so".

Of course not all the OT is overturned by the NT, but on the other hand the NT is the not "pretty clear on this" so it is a debatable point.

[BurningDoom]

The church and Bible are pretty clear on this and I as a Christian try not to question what God or the Bible says. However if you aren't Christian and don't subscribe to those beliefs, then you're free to believe however you want.

Your faith is obviously important to you. That being the case, doesn't it warrant you questioning what you are told to believe? How can you truly have your own understanding of your spiritual side if you don't put some thought into it? Or did this phrase just come out clumsily?

Absolutely I meant what I said. I believe what the Bible says. Part of my faith is to put my complete trust in God's hands, and part of that is to fully embrace what the Bible says to the best of your god-given ability to with his help. That's kind of what "faith" is all about. I can understand how this seems silly to some, and trust me, I struggle with it at times too. But that's what God says he wants from me so I try at least.

Now, to be clear: I DO NOT BELIEVE that God wants me to go harass gay people, discriminate against them, or try to take away their rights. As a Christian I'm also supposed to try and be accepting of everyone, as Jesus was. I'm just saying I fully believe that the act of homosexuality is a sin.

[BurningDoom]

I know you keep saying "I'm not a pastor" but it is hard to debate specific points of theology with you if you won't cite chapter/verse or explain things beyond "because God and the church say so".

Of course not all the OT is overturned by the NT, but on the other hand the NT is the not "pretty clear on this" so it is a debatable point.

Because I don't have these verses memorized, I'm not all that motivated to memorize verses associated with this since it doesn't really bother me as much as it seems to others. But I've most definetly heard them before, and I didn't want to go and look them up, but if you insist, here's the one that I was talking about:

Leviticus 18:22 (NIV) "Do not lie with a man as one lies with a woman; that is detestable."

"Detestable" is a pretty strong word.

[Flake]

Absolutely I meant what I said. I believe what the Bible says. Part of my faith is to put my complete trust in God's hands, and part of that is to fully embrace what the Bible says to the best of your god-given ability to with his help. That's kind of what "faith" is all about. I can understand how this seems silly to some, and trust me, I struggle with it at times too. But that's what God says he wants from me so I try at least.

But the Bible is a book - the version you have has been translated, added to, subtracted from, altered...and always for the benefit of the person who was doing the changing. The words you hear spoken from the pulpit are not the direct word of God - they are the words of another person who is just as flawed, imperfect, selfish, and wonderful as anyone else. The bible and the church are not your faith - they are tools of your religion.

Maybe I am the wrong person to say this but faith is not about blind acquiescence. If God is that important to you, doesn't He deserve more of an effort?

Sorry to derail.

[BurningDoom]

Absolutely I meant what I said. I believe what the Bible says. Part of my faith is to put my complete trust in God's hands, and part of that is to fully embrace what the Bible says to the best of your god-given ability to with his help. That's kind of what "faith" is all about. I can understand how this seems silly to some, and trust me, I struggle with it at times too. But that's what God says he wants from me so I try at least.

But the Bible is a book - the version you have has been translated, added to, subtracted from, altered...and always for the benefit of the person who was doing the changing. The words you hear spoken from the pulpit are not the direct word of God - they are the words of another person who is just as flawed, imperfect, selfish, and wonderful as anyone else. The bible and the church are not your faith - they are tools of your religion.

Maybe I am the wrong person to say this but faith is not about blind acquiescence. If God is that important to you, doesn't He deserve more of an effort?

Sorry to derail.

Well of course you study the Bible. If you didn't you'd would be going on blind faith, which is what happened in the Dark Ages because most of the European population couldn't read and just accepted whatever they were told. I read a personal devotional every day, and go into a longer Bible Study at church once a week. The Bible itself I do not question, no. That is the word of God, and it is supposed to be the source from which we gain our understanding of God. And as you can see, I obviously don't have the book memorized.

What's ironic about this conversation is that I've been on the other side of it during my younger years.

[Flake]

What's ironic about this conversation is that I've been on the other side of it during my younger years.

I hope you find yourself on that other side again. I say this with no malice but there is a growing under current of religious activism in this country lately predicated upon a "We believe we are right so we are right and you cannot tell us otherwise" mentality like what you are espousing.

Nothing scares the shit out of secularists and non-Christians like myself than that type of movement.

Back on topic though:

Gay guys in the Navy = the most useful people ever when you are at sea, get promoted, and you need someone who can sew a rank patch on.