Homosexuality

[Flake]

Ummm, maybe, but it's the same idea, Colin.

A meth lab, even behind closed doors, has a tangible social cost. Even if the meth is being cooked for private consumption you still have the ruination of the structure upon which that door is hinged and a bill to taxpayers in the form of a law enforcement response and trip to the hospital somewhere down the line. If the meth cook is clumsy, add a visit from the fire department.

When two men or two women lie down to sleep next to one another you get...well...I cannot really think of any tangible social cost. In a committed gay relationship (just like in a similar straight relationship), you have two people who are going to be building a life with one another: They are going to have to get jobs, rent or buy property, purchase furniture, clothes, food, and stuff. They will go out to eat with one another, engage in hobbies, travel. They'll pay taxes (more if we allow them to marry) and create the same increased economic demand that any couple does.

What's the cost? Surely it can't be that two men marrying takes something away from the marriage of another man and a woman. We have already established that divorce rates of heterosexual couples are through the roof. The 'tradition of marriage' argument should sound hollow to ANYONE if they think about it for even a second.

I honestly cannot see any social cost to be incurred by allowing gays to marry - I'll try not to resort to hyperbole but almost all the arguments against equality for gays are just recycled slogans from the segregation days.

[harper]

Ummm, maybe, but it's the same idea, Colin.

A meth lab, even behind closed doors, has a tangible social cost. Even if the meth is being cooked for private consumption you still have the ruination of the structure upon which that door is hinged and a bill to taxpayers in the form of a law enforcement response and trip to the hospital somewhere down the line. If the meth cook is clumsy, add a visit from the fire department.

Not to mention it's bad for the environment.

[dedalusdedalus]

I understand your views on homosexuality... now tell me, how do you feel about polygamy? Just to get a general consensus on how you guys feel about this. I think its a decent point to bring up. If homosexuality is okay, why can't I have 4 wives?

Cute example. But polygamy can be distinguished from homosexuality in that it produces a tangible social harm. Don't believe me? Read about the Kingston sect of Mormonism and let me know if polygamy still sounds like good idea.

[BurningDoom]

Being a devout Christian myself, here's my beliefs on it:

The act of homosexuality is indeed a sin in God's eyes, and therefore the church's and my eyes as well. And despite the original posting, there is indeed backing in the bible to support this. Sodom and Gomorrah being the biggest example, and Noah's sons looking on their father while naked being another. There are other examples, but forgive me, I'm not a Pastor, I don't know exactly where they are. But even bigger than that, any sexual activity that is not between a married man and his wife is considered a sin, so it should be pretty cut and dry there.

However, that said, I STRONGLY believe that many churches take a very hypocritical view on it. We're supposed to hate the sin, not hate the sinner. And unfortunately, a lot of Christians have forgotten that. "He without sin, cast the first stone." All people, church going Christians included, are sinners. And we should be more worried about our own faults rather than going on these ridiculous witch-hunts against gay-policies.

[mjmjr25]

When you say you "knew" these things to be true, what do you mean by "know"? A gut instinct? How do you know it wasn't just pangs of regret for living immorally, and that you found religion to be a useful tool to refocus your life when you couldn't do it yourself?

Meaning that I had grown up with an idea of what Christ was, and what behaviors would be received well by people I respected. Then came a time when those earthly pleasures became more important to me than the opinions of people I respected, and I made attempts to get away from Christ. I tried real hard. I wanted Him to hate me. To give up on me, but He wouldn't.

So how do I know today? Because he spoke to me 5 years ago and has not left my side since. And I have a relationship with Him, I speak to Him daily. Not in some hovering mystical ghost, no. And before anyone feels the need to do the, "Uh, Mike, that's what we call your conscience." I assure you, I know the difference. It is very tough to put into words. But yes, I have Him in my heart and it isn't because I want to keep a job, or have people like me, or that i'm scared if I don't pretend to believe then I might go to hell, it is because I have been blessed enough that He did not give up on this horrible sinner. That I have been redeemed and He is my friend. It isn't a guessing game, it isn't up for debate. It isn't, "hmm, I suppose it's possible, I mean, some of this stuff is pretty hard to explain." I don't have all the answers, but no man does.

Have you read many books in the Apologetics realm Dave? I think you would do well with those.

@Harper, i'm glad to see you in this thread and having fun with it too. I like you a lot.

@Flake, we are not connecting. If you do not accept that it is a sin, then I agree, there is zero social cost. We are on the same page. Again, get...down....dead...horse. This is where we depart. Your view is strictly secular. I don't view anything secularly. No true practicer of any faith should, should they. From your perspective, I agree with you 100%. I don't share that perspective, though. But I do love you very much

[sevin0seven]

..it's so nice to see good friends having good conversations.

Colin, I love you too.

[Flake]

From your perspective, I agree with you 100%. I don't share that perspective, though. But I do love you very much

That is what confuses me. It seems totally arbitrary that your faith views it as a sin. The commandments do not cover that - and those are things that even we secular folk can agree are 'sins'. Minus the parts about the Sabbath and idols and what not, of course.

The only parts of your doctrine that advise you to view homosexuality as a sin come from sections of the bible that have been the subject of dubious translation.

It just feels like you do yourself a great disservice by defaulting to someone else's teachings instead of judging this one on your own. Or maybe it just makes me sad that you're a guy who I have a lot of respect for and look up to as a good example of what a man, husband, and father should be...but you're also a guy who would look at many of my friends who are incredible people who just happen to be gay and see sinners.

[Michi]

I love everybody in this thread for being able to have a civil discussion that on any lesser forum would make the internet go *BOOM!*


And here's a picture of a nice, burning meth lab, you know, so it's still relevant to the discussion

[Forlorn Drifter]

I also find it interesting how my simple opinion that homosexuality is wrong, I don't support it, would not participate it, and am not willing to have the idea that it is okay forced upon me led to the questioning of gay marriage.

I never mentioned that, nor did I bring it up. I have little opinion either way. I'd say that we allow them all the advantages with insurance and such, but don't call it marriage. I only believe that because marriage leaves a certain image in my and many other peoples minds, and I don't think we're ready just yet to open up that image much more.

On the religious side of things, homosexuality is a sin. However, sin is forgiven if we ask for forgiveness. I'm willing to accept homosexuals and have dealings with them, hell, even hug gay men and women as long as they understand my view, and don't force their views upon me. If John acts like every other guy, except for his sexuality, I won't question him. If he goes around wearing rainbows, telling everyone he's gay, and hitting on any man he thinks is even decent looking, I will be offended. Same with women going around telling everyone their gay, hitting on all the women they want, and constantly throwing gay pride right in my face.



As to whether or not homosexuality is directly stated as a sin or not, I'll leave that up to your disgretion. Being as religious as I am, I would ask the homosexuals I know to ask for forgiveness, just to be safe.

[DinnerX]

Forgot to address this.

You might hear about it in your church, but I don't see Focus on the Family trying to push the Republican party to "defend marriage" from this particular "sin".

Well, I don't know. I'm out of the loop there. The lax attitude many people have toward divorce might change if the law required more substantial reasons for getting one.

Anyway, I am glad to see you join in the conversation too after yesterday's thread (same to you Forlorn and, of course, mjm). I'm glad to see that we can have a civil discussion, and I hope you feel that you can explain yourself here (knowing that you'll likely get into a debate) without the fear of being belittled.

I was busy during the day or I'd probably have shown up earlier.

@Mr.Popo
The main point is the government has to pick between beliefs, moral or otherwise, when it makes laws. Opinions on which beliefs are better/more stable will vary based on the goals and ideas of those involved.

It's not that I confuse the legal and religious senses of marriage. It's simply that I view legally recognized same-sex marriage as government endorsement of something immoral.