Nerds and Male Privilege

[CFFJR]

Eventually they let me up, and I calmly put one dollar in both the player 1 side and the player 2 side, picked up both guns, and began to play. (Nobody wanted to be player 2 to my player 1 of course.) After about 2 minutes I was completely unaware of anything around me. I was focused. How people were or were not treating me was immaterial, because I really, REALLY wanted to play the game.

I don't remember how long I stood there, but I beat the entire game controlling both guns on those two dollars in one marathon session.

In this topic: irixith is a total badass.

As for the current topic of discussion, whatever the circumstances were, the PR guy acted like an ass. Its not okay by any stretch.

[Key-Glyph]

Nobody wanted to talk to me or congratulate me, and that stung. If I could have my time back, I wish that I would have said something clever or been able to join the crowd somehow, but I'm not sure I could do that now, let alone then. Maybe if I was prettier it would have been a cooler achievement -- hot AND beat the game in one sitting? Whoa.

Even today when I go to the local game store, the clerks don't even look at me or ask me if I need any help. I popped in to pick up Lego Batman 2, and a group of them were talking about Nintendo's E3 presentation. I tried to join in the conversation and all I got was silence.

I left, feeling awkward and alone in my hobby.

Do I wish I could change things and confront people about their blatant sexism? Sure. Do I really want to treated like even more of an outsider than I already am? No. How to explain that to people that are automatically accepted into the social group because of their sex? I have no clue.

I quote only an excerpt, but your post was awesome in its entirety, irixith.

It bothers me that no one congratulated you or said anything at all, but it was also not your job to break the ice with the crowd afterwards in order to make friends. I would think your prowess alone should secure you your insider's status, or at least less a little admiration. And your statement that you are average-looking, and your speculations on how that might have factored into things, was poignant. I empathize.

I am going to add that the mood of a venue seems to determine, to a great extent, how stringently people adhere to gender attitudes. Guys are similarly pressured to "act like guys are supposed to act," whether or not they agree with the presented standard, and I think that sexist attitudes in certain situations are unfortunately advertised as part of "how guys are supposed to act." Witness Tekken coach Aris' claim that "...sexual harassment is part of the culture. If you remove that from the fighting game community, it’s not the fighting game community," the support his ridiculous claim received by a large portion of the internet, and the simple fact that nobody stuck up for the woman being harassed during the actual tournament. I'm positive many of those guys present there must have been appalled by Aris' behavior, but those that were were swayed by the mood of the venue to keep quiet, lest they draw ire for being "white knights" or otherwise unworthy of the community. (I'm glad that Aris' philosophy did not go unopposed, however, and was ripped apart by Racketboy and other groups.)

Keith Apicary concerts, as a contrasting example, are extremely inclusive to all. I think this is for two reasons. Firstly, Keith concerts foster this joyful group mentality in the crowd; everyone's just letting loose, forgetting to care about looking cool, and excited to be in it together. The prevailing attitude is simply "everyone be a part of this collective mayhem and make it HUGE!" I have never seen a such a large group of men dance so unselfconsciously in the middle of a crowd circle than to Keith's songs; I seriously doubt any attendees were concerned with negatively judging anyone, being so indifferent to being judged themselves. Secondly, Keith himself is very respectful of women, and I think it frees others to follow his lead. At the last event I attended he gave a little speech addressing the fact that there were females in the audience, thanking them for "braving the storm and the aroma" and saying that "I don't like to think of us as all having wieners or vagegges -- we're all just video game players." It's part of his character to be over-interested in ladies because they're ladies, but the joke ends there. It's very clear that if you're a woman, you're just a gamer of a different shape, and that's where the differences end. And that seems to be what everyone else in attendance ends up agreeing with.

Do Aris supporters form the same opinions when outside of their venue's active expectations? Do Keith's? Would irixith have been applauded if her audience hadn't been worried about what the other guys there might think of them for doing so? What if she'd been a guy? Or in a different arcade? I wonder about this sort of thing.

[Flake]

So here's a question then, not necessarily specifically directed at you, but you seem to be interested in this thread.

How does a female confront the issue when it's experienced, without coming off as..

..a bitch?
..a man-hating dyke?
..being on her period?
..etc.

Case by case basis.

In the example you gave about playing House of the Dead beyond the level of mere mortals, a 'one of the dudes' approach would probably have worked. Just making some comment about how much you enjoy the game or how hard you worked to get to that level could have resonated with those guys, maybe.

In the instance of the journalist at E3 whose article rekindled this thread, the approach could have been as simple as saying 'This is all very interesting but if I don't get a chance for a hands on, I cannot write a good article about your game'. That one sentence should be enough to satisfy all parties: The PR guy is reminded that this woman will be presenting his game to all of her readers and the woman will be able to do her job.

[Erik_Twice]

When we still get blatantly sexist threads like and this, yes, sexism clearly exists even in this otherwise decent forum. I would argue, however, that here it at least seems like these individuals are sexist, and that this forum as a whole isn't promoting a culture of sexism that I can see.

Next time you call me a bigot, do it to my face instead of being the concendescing asshole you normally are. And try to back it up instead of just insulting people.

You are not worth my time and really, nobody else's. You also don't know how to read, but since you are such a big asshole it's to be expected.

[ZeroAX]

When we still get blatantly sexist threads like this and this, yes, sexism clearly exists even in this otherwise decent forum. I would argue, however, that here it at least seems like these individuals are sexist, and that this forum as a whole isn't promoting a culture of sexism that I can see.

Why wasn't I labeled a sexist?

I've been trying so hard for it

[Ivo]

Right -- but this is where the discussion helps, isn't it? I don't have all the answers, just my experience. If I can explain how it feels on my side, and the guys can explain how it feels on theirs, that when progress can happen.

Exactly. It's a behavior that has to be confronted head on to be changed, no matter whether it is gaming, or gymnastics, or fishing, or cooking, or anything that can be narrowly (and incorrectly) pegged down to a specific gender, race, or creed.

So here's a question then, not necessarily specifically directed at you, but you seem to be interested in this thread.

How does a female confront the issue when it's experienced, without coming off as..

..a bitch?
..a man-hating dyke?
..being on her period?
..etc.

Taking the E3 article as an example, she's feeling a lot of things that are naturally going to result in being defensive. How do you not make the PR guy respond on the defensive himself?

Actually addressing these questions now. I'm with Flake on this. It is case by case with this stuff, there are probably some guidelines and the most important is probably: What do you care what other people think?
(title of a book actually)

It is the same type of answer of how does a male confront some issues (not always the same issues) without coming off as...

... being too "macho", overly aggressive, having too much testosterone? (or asshole / jerk)
... a coward? (or someone who doesn't stand up for himself)

... being sexist? (funny, isn't it)
... a sissy / effeminate guy?

... only saying / doing something because he is interested in having sex with a woman / thinking with his "other" head?
... gay?

... a creep?
... a loser?

... etc.

In many cases it can be very close to damned if you do and damned if you don't in terms of external opinions, from other males or from females.
The very first one I included there in my list of examples is quite close to the writer's situation here and there are somewhat direct counterparts to the ones Irixith mentioned (being on period / having too much testosterone; being a feminist bitch or man-hating dyke / being a sexist, bigot, chauvinistic pig, being gay or effeminate).

The best is to not care about what others think if you are not interfering with their own freedom, enjoy your own and protect it actively and assertively. You should mostly just care about what people you are fond of and know you think about you, but not of what random people that hardly know you think about you.

Ivo.

[Gunstar Green]

The difference here is that in the gaming community nobody is going to think those things about a man. A woman however is the minority, the outsider. She's much more likely to have those kind of insults or assumptions leveled at her for bringing to light examples of male privilege.

I've also never heard anyone equate "having too much testosterone" to "are you on your period?" That is absolutely ridiculous.

Of course there are gender stereotypes on both sides. No one is denying that, but trying to equate them on this issue just comes off as an attempt to downplay the seriousness of the problem or pretend it doesn't exist.

On the topic of confronting the issue I found the post on Kotaku to be a much more eloquent and effective way of doing so than pointlessly causing a fuss at that E3 booth.

[Ivo]

1. The difference here is that in the gaming community nobody is going to think those things about a man. A woman however is the minority, the outsider. She's much more likely to have those kind of insults or assumptions leveled at her for bringing to light examples of male privilege.

2. I've also never heard anyone equate "having too much testosterone" to "are you on your period?" That is absolutely ridiculous.

3. Of course there are gender stereotypes on both sides. No one is denying that, but trying to equate them on this issue just comes off as an attempt to downplay the seriousness of the problem or pretend it doesn't exist.

4. On the topic of confronting the issue I found the post on Kotaku to be a much more eloquent and effective way of doing so than pointlessly causing a fuss at that E3 booth.

1. I think you are quite wrong. I think I may even be able to bring up situations for each, starting from the top: in a competitive game, someone that is playing to win could get the 1st one (overly aggressive) from others that are playing casually; conversely someone playing a stealth style could be called a coward. Being sexist will easily be leveraged at gamers; one of the most used insults in FPS over chat is you are gay and from that you could easily conceive sissy or wimp (so coward revisited as well). Someone being nice to a female player may be prompted with only doing so to earn favour with the female, and therefore could also earn a "creep". And n00b equates close enough to loser.

2. Maybe because you don't see what I'm getting at with it? Both are de-humanizing the individual by assuming that its the (respective) hormones that are calling the shots and responsible for the behaviour. I think it is a pretty close parallel.

3. On the contrary, I not only am confirming it exists but going further to say it is much worse, not at all limited to women and I prefer to get at the root of the problem than just cut of a particularly problematic branch. The problem is not male gamers. For me the real problem is quite more vast, society (both males and females, and not just gamers) is too intolerant of difference, too judgemental and stereotypes way too much instead of considering people as individuals.

4. I can not understand how this is a consistent view point. How is standing up for herself at the booth "pointlessly causing a fuss" if you think the article is not?
She should have done both, she missed a chance because she didn't or couldn't react, fair enough, why is it so stuff for some to admit that and move on. Certainly at the booth it would not be pointless - it was the only chance she had at stopping that particular instance of that behaviour. She may as well hope that writing the article will stop future ones, but she could just as well have written the article AND have tried to stop that one.

Ivo.

[Gunstar Green]

It's not in some people's personalities to react to someone in person like that. Have you ever been in a situation where you wanted to say something to someone out of anger and you didn't because you were either too shy to do so or didn't want to embroil yourself in a face to face confrontation?

If you haven't then I must say I envy your self confidence.

[Key-Glyph]

P.S., this is what I think of whenever I see rixith around the boards now.