Women gamers: How many in each community or kind of game?

[dsheinem]

I believe that it's this pressure that keeps women from representing a greater number of the obsessives in hobbies that either aren't rooted in femininity or don't foster community ties -- even when they'd prefer to be in rank alongside the boys.

The thing is, as evidenced by stuff like PAX or this forum, gaming does foster community ties, which is why I think the concerns about sexism are voiced much more in gaming culture than they might be in more insulated male-based and obsessive hobbies.

[ZeroAX]

Some people just WANT to be offended.


Anyone think that the generation of gamer dads will GREATLY increase female participation in genres and games they haven't had a strong showing thus far?

Cause I've had a few female friends who's dads were huge gamers, and thus their daughters were much more into "hardcore" stuff.

I think it makes sense, and that it will be a major factor in the future

[Ivo]

Also as a few more examples, games like Harvest Moon and Animal Crossing can be pretty "involved". At least I think so, I personally have difficulties getting into games like of that type. Perhaps I'm not male enough for the involvement required Seriously though, I think those games have a significant female demographic that gets into them. So it is definitively the case that looking just at the level of "involvement" (nebulously defined) is not enough, even though there may indeed be some relationship between it and female participation there is just so much more to it.

The quilting (and similar examples) are very good. As above I think one can wonder about other aspects beyond just involvement, such as motivations for taking a hobby. How many of those quilters (regardless of gender) are primarily motivated by the social interactions and could just as well be doing something else (I'm not saying they would easily swap, given the large time and money investment in some cases)? How many of them are motivated by being creative and actively making stuff to decorate their own houses or to gift loved ones with (further socializing)? How many of them are motivated by competition (against others or simply against a complicated pattern)?

Conversely, how many of the (for lack of better wording) stereotypical male "involved" hobbies like gaming is motivated by competition (against others or simply "against the game")?
How many of us have actually dedicated an high-score to a loved one as a gift (and was that gift understood or appreciated?).

As Key Glyph suggests, there are certainly strong external factors at work here.

There are also some males into crafting, and just like there are relatively more females in some games, there are also some crafts that for whatever reason attract more males - I think fuse beading may be an interest example of that - maybe because of how well it lends itself to re-creating pixel art.

Is it perhaps the primary effect is not involvement, but society acceptance? Maybe the most important effect is simply that both genders are more highly represented in subsets of stereotypical activities of the opposite gender in instances where those subsets have characteristics that make them more acceptable by society?
This could be more social interaction than usual in games, or certain "male friendly" themes in crafting.

By the way, I don't have the impression that Tetris is badly seen at all. What makes you think that?
I could see say Bejeweled and clones have that reputation, but Tetris I don't remember seeing anyone discriminate in that way (although maybe Tetris doesn't get the reputation just for historical reasons?).

Ivo.

[Erik_Twice]

I've corrected my misinterpretation and gotten his intended meaning, which was, "the more obsessively dedicated a hobby demands its members to be, the fewer women you'll find there."

Not quite:
"the more "obsessively dedicated" a part of the gaming hobby (or a gaming-related hobby) is, the fewer women (proportionatedly) you'll find there right now, as a rule of thumb".

It was not my intention to cover anything but games. Perhaps I should have been clearer but really, cut me some slack, the word "game" or variations appears half a dozen times in my post and we are in the Games as Culture subforum

Obviously there are incredibly dedicated women in many hobbies and some games, like Bridge are female-dominated at all levels.

Similarly, I'm talking about my perceptions of the current status of gaming as a whole not an ideal status or the future. I didn't go into much detail so we could get a conversation going, which is the fun part.

What I find interesting is that some parts of the hobby have more women in them than others and there must be several reasons why. This thread is to find and discuss those possible reasons.

Hope that clears everything.

I believe that it's this pressure that keeps women from representing a greater number of the obsessives in hobbies that either aren't rooted in femininity or don't foster community ties -- even when they'd prefer to be in rank alongside the boys.

Indeed. And it's so ingrained that most women enforce it themselves.


PD: The Sims is a great game.

[Key-Glyph]

I just tried writing a reply, but my post was way too long. I need time to whittle it down.

You're all bringing up such interesting stuff and I can't help but want to respond to it all!

EDIT: I'll start briefly with this:

The thing is, as evidenced by stuff like PAX or this forum, gaming does foster community ties, which is why I think the concerns about sexism are voiced much more in gaming culture than they might be in more insulated male-based and obsessive hobbies.

Wait, you thought I actually wanted to eat lunch with you at PAX?

[irixith]

The quilting (and similar examples) are very good. As above I think one can wonder about other aspects beyond just involvement, such as motivations for taking a hobby. How many of those quilters (regardless of gender) are primarily motivated by the social interactions and could just as well be doing something else (I'm not saying they would easily swap, given the large time and money investment in some cases)? How many of them are motivated by being creative and actively making stuff to decorate their own houses or to gift loved ones with (further socializing)? How many of them are motivated by competition (against others or simply against a complicated pattern)?

This really interests me. (The idea of a hobby being based around an innate need for social interaction or to exercise a competitive spirit.)

I started playing games when I was very young -- things like the Commodore Vic20 were new and exciting back then. You know, before the telephone was invented and our parents still trudged through snow in their bare feet each evening to kill dinner with spears fashioned from sharpened sticks. My own personal motivation, at least as far as I can pinpoint now in my early 30's, was that gaming was a very individual activity. I was never particularly good at anything team based, and gaming removed the horror of not only not excelling socially, but being actively rejected from most social groups. Gaming was my refuge, and not only did I enjoy it, I excelled at it. There were times when socially I almost was able to fit in by being able to participate in 2 player games -- but it never developed into anything more than being sought after for my skill.

The fact that gaming has now evolved (or more accurately, been forced to be whether we like it or not) into a much more social medium, is hard for me to swallow. The very thing that draws me towards gaming is being eroded. While I actively seek out social contact based on talking about games and sharing experience, I still want the act of playing them to be an individual experience.

[MrPopo]

You know, before the telephone was invented and our parents still trudged through snow in their bare feet each evening to kill dinner with spears fashioned from sharpened sticks.

<looks at irixith's location> So... 2001?

The fact that gaming has now evolved (or more accurately, been forced to be whether we like it or not) into a much more social medium, is hard for me to swallow. The very thing that draws me towards gaming is being eroded. While I actively seek out social contact based on talking about games and sharing experience, I still want the act of playing them to be an individual experience.

I actually sympathize with this viewpoint a lot. It's rare that I find a multiplayer game I like. Usually it's only one every 6-12 months. The rest of the time it's single player stuff. It leads to a weird feeling for me in that I really like FPS's but I don't like the majority of modern FPS's because of the huge emphasis on the multiplayer.

[Forlorn Drifter]

Harvest Moon and Animal Crossing can be pretty "involved".

I find this point interesting, though I think we need to look at the fact that these games tend to focus on the social aspect, rather than the gamplay. (Looking at Harvest Moon, the games started as a farming game with marriage, to a social game with a bit of farming.)

Don't intend to start an argument, just though that was something that should be brought up.

[Ivo]

This really interests me. (The idea of a hobby being based around an innate need for social interaction or to exercise a competitive spirit.)

Not all hobbies are for everyone. It is not just social interaction and competition as factors but others. One can want something they can do sitting down, or conversely something that lets them get out of the chair/sofa. For some it is important that it is something they can have on the go.

So someone that wants a given % of this and that on their preferred hobby may favour something or other. I think gaming is really quite flexible. Within gaming there are favourite genres that can vary widely. Someone that wants competition but not so much socialization will probably prefer fighting games over team competition such as League of Legends and other DotA clones. If you want a hobby that can always be with you, gaming can also provide with handhelds. Want something you can enjoy in short breaks, some more simplistic arcade games can provide. Want something really deep? Some games are arguably deep enough to play them an entire life.

Also, book clubs have been used as an example previously. Many males and females read, but apparently book clubs are more stereotypically female (I honestly don't know)? This is basically the same hobby but with an extra social component added (and perhaps a bit of depth as well).

The fact that gaming has now evolved (or more accurately, been forced to be whether we like it or not) into a much more social medium, is hard for me to swallow. The very thing that draws me towards gaming is being eroded. While I actively seek out social contact based on talking about games and sharing experience, I still want the act of playing them to be an individual experience.

I think there will always be plenty of single player games, so maybe you can relax

Still, back to the different %s and motivations theme I am also quite interested in - back to your awesome showmanship on HotD 4 which really impresses me. Maybe I'm wrong, but did that happen a while ago and you basically had not really discussed it with others before? I think the typical quilter accomplishing a similar feat would not only want to have encouragement and showing the work in progress a lot etc., but also really want to show the "masterpiece" to the others. Despite you feeling a void in not being congratulated by the onlookers, it seems somewhat clear that you did not prioritize those to the same extent, which I think is consistent with your main motivations for gaming. You know you did it and that is mostly enough. Correct me if I'm wrong, don't mean to be presumptuous

Ivo.

[MrPopo]

Also, book clubs have been used as an example previously. Many males and females read, but apparently book clubs are more stereotypically female (I honestly don't know)? This is basically the same hobby but with an extra social component added (and perhaps a bit of depth as well).

I think there's also an aspect there regarding the traditional role of woman as tenders of the household. So during the period where the kids are at school and the husband is at work the wives can get together as part of a book club. Now obviously that has gone down tremendously with the large number of two working parent households but the book club stereotype is a holdover from earlier times.