The next installment of Smash Bros.

[Erik_Twice]

Don't think of it as how much effort but rather is that what the developers want from their game.

The developers want people to have less fun? If so, they can go suck a frying pan.

[DinnerX]

Smash bros. by default is a party game, but there is a layer of skill based fighting underneath it all. Before Brawl, it was easy to play purely in the skill based fighting layer of the game through options. People had fun doing this. They had real, actual fun playing a game in a way it wasn't intended to be played.

Comboing was an accident in SFII. Quake's competitive scene uses crazy techniques id probably never foresaw. Speedrunning often breaks games entirely, but people enjoy it. Most of competitive gaming comes from doing things the developers didn't intend.

I don't agree with everything the competitive smash scene does. But there are quite a lot of people that enjoy playing the game with randomness off. I'll say it again: it doesn't take much work to make something optional in a game. Is it too much to ask Nintendo to make randomness optional so a large, dedicated section of the fanbase will be happy? I (obviously) don't think so.

I always hate it when I feel the designer is forcing some sort of vision on me in any game or genre. If I feel I'm being walled in to a set path, it takes some of the enjoyment away, particularly when creating a simple option could allow everyone to have it their own way.

[MrPopo]

Comboing was an accident in SFII. Quake's competitive scene uses crazy techniques id probably never foresaw. Speedrunning often breaks games entirely, but people enjoy it. Most of competitive gaming comes from doing things the developers didn't intend.

And some of those things are seen as a good thing and get carried forward, like comboing. Other things are seen as a bad thing and get removed, like bunny hopping. Or how about snaking in Mario Kart/F-Zero? It changes the gameplay from "who knows the track the best and can eck out every advantage on every turn" to "who's the best at this horribly repetitive task of manual dexterity". Does it take skill to snake well? Of course. But is that the kind of skill you want to be the differentiating factor between good and great players?

I'll say it again: it doesn't take much work to make something optional in a game. Is it too much to ask Nintendo to make randomness optional so a large, dedicated section of the fanbase will be happy? I (obviously) don't think so.

I always hate it when I feel the designer is forcing some sort of vision on me in any game or genre. If I feel I'm being walled in to a set path, it takes some of the enjoyment away, particularly when creating a simple option could allow everyone to have it their own way.

See, that's the whole point of making a game. You present your vision to the player. Some games have a vision of "do what you want in our world, make it yours". Other games have a narrow focus. At the end of the day every game is a series of constraints.

[DinnerX]

Comboing was an accident in SFII. Quake's competitive scene uses crazy techniques id probably never foresaw. Speedrunning often breaks games entirely, but people enjoy it. Most of competitive gaming comes from doing things the developers didn't intend.

And some of those things are seen as a good thing and get carried forward, like comboing. Other things are seen as a bad thing and get removed, like bunny hopping. Or how about snaking in Mario Kart/F-Zero? It changes the gameplay from "who knows the track the best and can eck out every advantage on every turn" to "who's the best at this horribly repetitive task of manual dexterity". Does it take skill to snake well? Of course. But is that the kind of skill you want to be the differentiating factor between good and great players?

The point is it's not inherently weird to play a game in an unintended manner for the purpose of competition.

I always hate it when I feel the designer is forcing some sort of vision on me in any game or genre. If I feel I'm being walled in to a set path, it takes some of the enjoyment away, particularly when creating a simple option could allow everyone to have it their own way.

See, that's the whole point of making a game. You present your vision to the player. Some games have a vision of "do what you want in our world, make it yours". Other games have a narrow focus. At the end of the day every game is a series of constraints.

Every game has constraints, but in my opinion you don't feel them acutely in a good game.

[CFFJR]

*sigh*

I feel like this topic is going to get locked at some point.

Boy, there's nothing more fun than arguing about the "right" way to play a game, I tell you what!

[MrPopo]

[The point is it's not inherently weird to play a game in an unintended manner for the purpose of competition.

No, but it is weird to complain when they don't cater to you.

[DinnerX]

The point is it's not inherently weird to play a game in an unintended manner for the purpose of competition.

No, but it is weird to complain when they don't cater to you.

The first two games were fine for everyone, so why shouldn't I be slightly annoyed that Nintendo apparently went out of their way to annoy competitive players? The option to remove randomness will not hurt casual players. Options can make the game more fun for everyone. I'm not asking them to permanently remove items and all the stages except final destination and tie a jet plane to the earth using a chain made out of speedos or something.

I do enjoy playing Brawl anyway. It's not a bad game. I just can't grasp why a company would annoy part of their player base when they could make almost everyone happy relatively easily.

[ZeroAX]

What are you talking about exactly when you say "remove randomness"? From what I know the items can be turned off.

[DinnerX]

What are you talking about exactly when you say "remove randomness"? From what I know the items can be turned off.

I'd like to remove random tripping. Also, Luigi's green missile has an ultra powerful blast once and while. I've recovered with that blast so many times. I tend to feel a bit ripped off, because I don't know if I could have recovered with out getting lucky. Peach has a small chance of pulling up a super powerful turnip too. I'd like to be able to shut that stuff off.

Mainly just the tripping. That happens fairly frequently.

[ZeroAX]

Random tripping? That sounds like a pretty stupid mechanic :S.

I mean the items add fun, that only adds frustration.