Official Racketboy Suggestion Forum Thread

[dsheinem]

Please code us something better to use. We'd be happy to have it. Something like what exists over at shmups.org, which has links to people's name with feedback comments would be ideal. I don't know how to do that, and no one else has ever stepped up to create one. Before I created this thread, we didn't even have any totals, so it is better than it was.

If I could I would. But just because I point out flaws in the system doesn't make me suddenly responsible for it. And its not like I was just complaing either, I offered 2 different ideas to help improve the system and make it less flawed. Hell, if we implemented one of them I would even be willing to help update the OP if I could. But I can't.

And yes, I realize we didn't have feedback, and that its better then no feedback. I'm not trying to be ungrateful for the work you put into this thread, but should we really just say "Thats good enough" when it can be even better. Sure it won't be perfect if we implement the multiple +'s or -'s or add ~'s because of all the old feedback still being there. But as you said, it would be better then it was.

Your criticisms aren't new, but they suggest that you have been using the feedback incorrectly for years. It suggests that you have used it without reading how it works in the OP, and that means you have also missed the acknowledgement posted in the OP that yes, the system is flawed. You aren't really contributing anything new by offering these suggestions, as we've kicked around all these ideas (e.g. neutral feedback) many times before. So yes, it comes across as a complaint based on a new discovery that you should have known about years ago.

Hell, when I first posted this thread (and ever since when I have updated it) I included the line at the top about "Hopefully it can be a basis for getting a real feedback system started..." That still has not happened, but not for lack of bringing it up with some regularity every couple of months. I've asked for community help, and when I was a mod I also asked if any of the mods/admins knew how to make a better system using the existing forum code. None did.

And you don't need access to the OP to update it, you just have to PM me an updated total and I'll update it. So if you DO want to pitch in, nothing's stopping you.

[dsheinem]

Also, searching for qualitative feedback isn't hard. Just click on "Search", type the user's name in the text box, click on "BST" from the forum lists, and you'll get something like this:

Mr Healthy

EDIT, I can't paste the URL properly because it has brackets in it, but the link above will give you something similar, just across all forums.

[MrHealthy]

Why a +2? Why not a +3? Or +4? The ~1 I can see, but I think we're moving far too much into subjective territory. Who's to say what you call a ~1 I would call a +1? Keeping to one point per transaction keeps it fair, and leaving out the ~ makes keep it as objective as possible. I just think it would unnecessarily complicate things.

Its already far to much in the subjective territory. If I was irked in anyway I could easily say that he doesn't deserve feedback or worse gets a -1 for it when it was otherwise a solid transaction.

No system will ever be perfect. Do you put stock in ebay feedback? Shill bidding happens all the time there too. There's a place to look up someone's total but you don't know any more details unless you comb there either. Yes it is easier as it is all for that one user, but since nearly everyone just posts useless crap like "AAAAAAA++++++ best seller evar! Would do business again" for feedback it is hard to find real information on users there too.

But yes we all agree this system we're using isn't the best. Manually adding up totals for people frankly sucks ass. But it's the best we have right now and it is better than nothing. As Dave said, feel free to suggest helpful solutions in the suggestions thread. We're all ears.

http://www.racketboy.com/forum/viewtopi ... 15&t=22069

I know that no system is perfect, and that a lot of feedback is false or not informative on places like ebay. But considering the size of our site even a slightly better system would result in much better, well, results. As for ebay, yes the feedback is mostly shit, but thats because its too big a site. However, they do offer a neutral feedback option (which isn't used near enough).

I already did give suggestions, two infact. But I didn't realize we had a dedicated thread for that. Another suggestion then, maybe this entire discussion from my original +2 post should be moved over to that thread and continue there.

[MrHealthy]

but they suggest that you have been using the feedback incorrectly for years. It suggests that you have used it without reading how it works in the OP, and that means you have also missed the acknowledgement posted in the OP that yes, the system is flawed. You aren't really contributing anything new by offering these suggestions, as we've kicked around all these ideas (e.g. neutral feedback) many times before. So yes, it comes across as a complaint based on a new discovery that you should have known about years ago.

This is all the OP says:
"Below is a totaled count of feedback posts that calculates all the feedback left from 08-15-2007 to 03-12-2012. If someone got a positive mention, they got a +1. Hopefully it can be a basis for getting a real feedback system started..."

Well I know that it contains the count of feedback from 08-15-2007 to 03-12-2012 so I am using it correctly there. I know that someone getting a positive mention gets them a +1, so Im using it right there as well. And I am not seeing any acknowledgement, so maybe thats where I am using it wrong eh? Maybe before you criticize me on using the system you should, you know, have an actual system in place with some guidlines in the OP? As of now, the OP doesn't even mention -1's at all, so I guess all the people using -1's are not using the system right eh? Or what if I made two different positive posts about the same sale. The OP says a positive mention is +1, Ive now given two, so thats +2. According to the OP its technically okay, though incredibly silly.

Sure, maybe I am not contributing anything new, but after several lengthy posts by several people not a single person has explained why we never implemented a neutral feedback option nor any other option. Everyone is just saying we want a coded feedback system, and yes, that would be better, loads better. But we can't. None of us have the knowledge to get one working. Whats stopping us from improving the system we do have though?

Also, searching for qualitative feedback isn't hard. Just click on "Search", type the user's name in the text box, click on "BST" from the forum lists, and you'll get something like this:

Mr Healthy

EDIT, I can't paste the URL properly because it has brackets in it, but the link above will give you something similar, just across all forums.

Alright, I admit I didn't think of that. But it does show a different problem with our system. People are not actually leaving detailed feedback, several of which relate directly to the rules, or more specifically, the lack of rules, in the OP. Some examples from your example (My comments in red):

• From Dsh:
  +1 to MrHealthy for buying a bunch of boxed NES games No detail of the transaction given. Did I pay quickly, was I easy to work with? How does just saying I bought something help anyone?
  +1 MrHealthy, your auction items arrived! Again, no helpful info. Where they as described? Was packaging sufficent?
  
  From Ziggy587:
  +1 to MrHealthy for paying! Paying? Seriously, is paying really considered positive. If this is all that was good about the sale, then I shouldn't have gotten feedback, or more prefferably I should have gotten neutral feedback.
  
  From pakopako:
  +1 for MrHealthy -- smuggling console coinage across the border for a good cause! A good way to describe the product being shipped and why it was shipped, but doesn't help future buyers decide if I am a good seller.
  
  From Lokkenjawnz:
  +1 to MrHealthy for the Golem figure Again, just saying what was bought helps no one.
  
  From YoshiEgg25:
  +1 MrHealthy - Auction items have arrived in great condition. A little detail. But not much to go on for future buyers.
  
  From sabrage:
  +1 MrHealthy There isn't even any feedback. So how can people be sure it was positive rather then being just mediocre. OP says positive mentions get a +1, not that +1's indicate a positive experiece. We need these guidlines in the OP.
  
  From Hobie-wan:
  +1 MrHealthy A fine transaction with our over the fence neighbor. Oh looky, another with no detail.
  
  From mjmjr25:
  +1 MrHealthy
  Bought a mystery box, communication was good both ways, and he made payment the day he said he would, nice deal. Glad the contents were up to snuff and look forward to future deals The only feedback for me that leaves any detail at all. This should be the bare minimum that is left.

If the info given is only helpful 1 out of every 9 times, then really how useful is it too look up.

[Flake]

The feedback system is less important for telling people about your performance as a seller and more about demonstrating your attachment to the community. A person with a very high number is very unlikely (though it has happened) to bail on a trade or misrepresent the condition of something - they likely value their reputation on the site too much to screw around.

If you ever need specific information, you can also just PM a person who has done business with a person and ASK them. I have done it a few times and avoided potential trouble more than once.

[Ziggy]

From Ziggy587:
+1 to MrHealthy for paying! Paying? Seriously, is paying really considered positive. If this is all that was good about the sale, then I shouldn't have gotten feedback, or more prefferably I should have gotten neutral feedback.

That was a direct quote? I don't remember.

I think paying is considered positive. Going through the trouble to get everything set up for sale and then having the buyer flake out really sucks, so paying is definitely a good thing. What did you buy from me? Was it a repro? Do you know how much it would suck when I would go through the trouble of making a repro for some one and then they wouldn't buy it?

As for a general lack of info, that's usually a good thing. If some one left feedback for a buy but didn't explain something like how well the item was packed, one would assume the lack of detail would mean everything was acceptable. If there was a problem with the packing, there might not have been a positive feedback left, or at least a note of what was wrong.

I agree with Flake. For most buys (of little value) I'll just look at total feedback and post count. If the numbers are good, I don't search for actual feedback comments. But if you're looking to make a more expensive buy, I don't see the problem with PMing previous buyers for more info.

[dsheinem]

And I am not seeing any acknowledgement, so maybe thats where I am using it wrong eh?

The mention of the need of a "real" system indicates that the one we have is flawed.

Maybe before you criticize me on using the system you should, you know, have an actual system in place with some guidlines in the OP? As of now, the OP doesn't even mention -1's at all, so I guess all the people using -1's are not using the system right eh? Or what if I made two different positive posts about the same sale. The OP says a positive mention is +1, Ive now given two, so thats +2. According to the OP its technically okay, though incredibly silly.

You are right that this isn't spelled out in the OP, but it is spelled out in the BST rules/guidelines:

1. Leave feedback in this thread after transactions are done: viewtopic.php?f=22&t=10752. Use a +1 for a positive transaction (regardless of the number of items involved) and a -1 for a negative transaction. Use this thread as a guide for deciding who you feel safe doing business with.

A link to those rules from the OP is probably a good idea, so I'll do so in a future update.

People are not actually leaving detailed feedback

I think policing how comments are left would be an endless nightmare for mods. Would it be nice if everyone left detailed comments? Yes. Is it enforceable? Probably not.

Also, Ziggy raises a good point:

As for a general lack of info, that's usually a good thing. If some one left feedback for a buy but didn't explain something like how well the item was packed, one would assume the lack of detail would mean everything was acceptable. If there was a problem with the packing, there might not have been a positive feedback left, or at least a note of what was wrong.

MrHealthy, I am sorry if I seemed overly defensive, I realize that you are trying to help, but I got a "fuck this system, I am done with feedback" vibe from you which really seems to undermine the fact that it has been a damn good system so far (the low number of negatives can attest to that, I think). I would be all for implementing neutrals if/when we went to a new system, and your clarification about needing to link the rules in the feedback OP is useful.

[Flake]

Our system is fine as is, especially considering we depend on volunteers to wade through mountains, upon mountains of pages of feedback to update the totals.

Having been one of those volunteers before, I am incredulous of anyone who thinks making the system MORE complicated is a good idea unless they have waded through that sea themselves.

[MrHealthy]

I gotta get up at 7 am for work tommorow, but I do have some more thoughts on this matter that I would like to address, both about the matter itself, and the way I have acted. So expect a huge multi-quote post sometime tommorow evening.

[mjmjr25]

As for a general lack of info, that's usually a good thing. If some one left feedback for a buy but didn't explain something like how well the item was packed, one would assume the lack of detail would mean everything was acceptable. If there was a problem with the packing, there might not have been a positive feedback left, or at least a note of what was wrong.

Dunno guys, I disagree with that assessment.

I take a lack of info in a neutral / negative context, if anything, certainly not positive.

And if a transaction had a problem, and no positive feedback is left, I think that hits to heart of MrHealthy's point...doesn't it? Meaning, no one knows about it, the sole purpose of feedback is to let others know how folks are to deal with...so if there was a problem, it should be addressed, not ignored (assuming it wasn't worked out in PM's).

When I leave a +1 membername, and no follow up, it means 1 of 3 things.
1) They as a seller / trader messed up, imo, I pm'd them, they reimbursed and "made it right", so I gave a +1 for making right, but it certainly wasn't positive, and isn't getting glowing remarks.
2) Means they "paid" but that's about all they did. Maybe they pm'd everyday wondering where their package was, despite a tracking number, etc - and in general were a pain in the balls though. However, they paid, so that is "positive", so +1 membername and no addtional comment.
3) It means i've gotten behind and unfortunately have to do a bulk "catch-up":
+1 member1
+1 member2
+1 member3

And I as I read reason 3, boy, those seem like pretty hollow positive remarks, don't they?

And before anysone says that i'm the only who interprets +1 membername and no comment that way, I assure you, i'm not. I've had PM discussions on the very topic with 3 long-term members, and that is same / similar to their understanding.

Being a small community, no one wants to give a -1 or a neutral (which doesn't really exist) so many of us have developed a +1 and no comment as almost a neutral, which certainly doesn't reflect appropriately in the totals.

I mean seriously, look how much thought and deliberation went into giving our last -1 (charity auction stuffs). It was done with much effort on the parts of those who did it and it was done with heavy hearts. Now, how quickly would a -1 generate for the same dealings on ebay, or on even a larger forum? Much quicker, I presume.

My post is not meant to stir up shit - I understand Dsh's and Flake's posts very very well and don't necessarily disagree with them.

Perhaps, a more detailed "disclaimer" on the OP of the feedback thread would help in lieu of a "better" feedback system. Something in the buyer beware, don't rely on numbers alone, please pm other members who've had successful dealings with the person you may do a deal with, etc and etc.

I agree, the current system, it is real tough to infuse a neutral option, waaaay too time intensive and too late in this current game. It would be a nice addition to a new system however...hopefully someone who reads this can get us on track toward an updated process.