Amendment One is Passed in North Carolina

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Luke
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Re: Amendment One is Passed in North Carolina

Post by Luke »

dsheinem wrote: How is that a broad sweeping generalization?

Several lifetimes?

That's saying you went to several services every day. Makes zero sense. No church has several services a day and I was raised Catholic (but in a Lutheran school, figure that one out).
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Re: Amendment One is Passed in North Carolina

Post by dsheinem »

Luke wrote:
dsheinem wrote: How is that a broad sweeping generalization?

Several lifetimes?

That's saying you went to several services every day. Makes zero sense. No church has several services a day and I was raised Catholic (but in a Lutheran school, figure that one out).
if they begin when born, most church going people go once a week on average for 60-70 years or so.

I went 3-4 times a week on average for 20 years or so. On top of that, I also went to Christian school for about 7 years of my K-12 education, with regular church-esque assemblies several times a week.

Ok, so maybe it is "once and a little bit of a second lifetime" not "several lifetimes". The point still stands, I think.
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Luke
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Re: Amendment One is Passed in North Carolina

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dsheinem wrote:
Ok, so maybe it is "once and a little bit of a second lifetime" not "several lifetimes". The point still stands, I think.
That sounds more fair. There is something about my business background that always seems to bust balls when numbers don't add up (dumb math says you would have to attend close to 30k services to make your "several" claim possible). But whatever, I've always respected you and your opinions.

Besides, I think the entire Ad 1 is going to lead to a circular argument anyway. My original post was meant to portray that this was an issue of civil irghts, nothing more.
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Re: Amendment One is Passed in North Carolina

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BoringSupreez wrote:
StuntDouble wrote:
BoringSupreez wrote:I'm "against it" in that I think it's wrong. I don't support forcing people to stop it or anything. And I don't hate gays either, I just don't like what they're doing.
I just don't understand your viewpoint. I'm having trouble seeing what's wrong with homosexuality. Not trying to call you out or anything, I'm just intrigued is all.
I'm Christian, the Bible says it's wrong, and the idea of it just seems wrong to me.
Well, I'm a Christian, too, and I don't. I think this guy has some good points on the matter. If you have some time, give it a watch: http://goo.gl/DDC0m

I think we're missing a big part of the debate here: Sure, primarily it is about marriage. It is about allowing gays and lesbians to marry. That's great, and there really shouldn't be any debate here in the first place. But, there is something even more important at stake here. As of right now, LGBT persons are second-class citizens, since they are not granted the rights and privileges of heterosexuals. Thus, it is much easier to justify persecution of such people. Think about how many hate crimes you hear of against LGBT persons every year. How often they are beaten, bullied, or even killed, because our culture reinforces the lie that they are somehow less than a citizen. Less than human, even. As long as this mindset is encouraged and prevalent in the world, persecution will not end. The only way you could deny this fact is if you openly support hate crimes, something I think everyone here is far above even thinking.
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Re: Amendment One is Passed in North Carolina

Post by Valkyrie-Favor »

There's a lot to deal with in this topic, and it's gotten pretty off course. I guess I'm not going to respond to everything right now.
...vantage point, and it looks ridiculous. I don't mean to be rude about that, I'm just trying to give my perspective. Christianity was a lot more appealing to me when it was about loving thy neighbor, doing unto others as you would do unto them, and living a pious and humble life devoted to service rather than stealing, killing, lying or engaging in other sins. Nowadays, however, Christianity has become this monstrous judgmental juggernaut that has lost its primary focus in favor of a decided focus of attention on marriage and pregancy, and more specifically who they don't want to get married (gays) and who they want to stay pregnant (everyone). Can Christians' public perception ever return to that of loving kindness?
The media's portrayal of Christianity is ridiculous. I definitely agree there. The most important thing in any Christian's life is his relationship with Jesus Christ. We obey the spirit and the letter of God's law based on this love. When a person is transformed and leaves their sinful habits behind, it's the effect of being saved. Not the cause.

If you hear anyone saying "God hates fags" or something like that, that's not a Christian. Christ died for everyone, straight and gay alike. While it is clear that God views homosexuality as sexual sin, he views my heterosexual lust the same. I am also guilty. All sinners deserve love, since our God displayed us the ultimate love.

I realize that violence and discrimination against gays is a major problem in many parts of the world, but in my school Christians are discriminated against more. You can't mention Jesus' name without getting dirty looks. You can't talk about your own faith in social studies. If you do, you're accused of "shoving religion down other people's throats" while the Jews, Buddhists and Daoists get applause. This is during the World Religions section! It's pretty rough for me. I have some homosexual friends. None of the ones I know personally have faced any problems, actually. Some speaker came in during an assemble and called the Bible "a pile of bullshit" and Christians "pansy-assed bigots" during an anti-bullying seminar. Huh.

On another note, I don't think that fighting against abortion is a hateful thing. Of course no one should be hated or bullied for circumstances beyond their control. While unborn babies don't have legal rights because they weren't born in the U.S, I don't think the founding fathers anticipated this. Since the American Constitution is based on "unalienable rights endowed by their Creator," it makes sense for new life to be protected from the moment of creation. I realize that it's tough on the women, especially if they were raped. I sympathize. But...legal murder. Of children!

Legally - I'm not sure it's constitutional for the government to control marriage at all, but the Supreme Court ruled that it does. The Constitution is based on morality, meaning that moral thought can never be removed from the law. Paradoxically, it's not allowed to endorse any particular type of morality. The U.S. has no business saying anything about marriage one way or the other.
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Re: Amendment One is Passed in North Carolina

Post by BoneSnapDeez »

Valkyrie-Favor wrote: On another note, I don't think that fighting against abortion is a hateful thing. Of course no one should be hated or bullied for circumstances beyond their control. While unborn babies don't have legal rights because they weren't born in the U.S, I don't think the founding fathers anticipated this. Since the American Constitution is based on "unalienable rights endowed by their Creator," it makes sense for new life to be protected from the moment of creation. I realize that it's tough on the women, especially if they were raped. I sympathize. But...legal murder. Of children!
Oh God let's not get into this.
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Re: Amendment One is Passed in North Carolina

Post by dsheinem »

While it is clear that God views homosexuality as sexual sin
there is no good scriptural grounds for this claim
I realize that it's tough on the women, especially if they were raped. I sympathize. But...
But??? No no no no. Just stop at sympathy. Don't pretend that you can stand behind any justifiable moral principle to tell someone that an abortion is worse than carrying the product of rape to term. Just stop.
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Re: Amendment One is Passed in North Carolina

Post by Valkyrie-Favor »

I also sympathize for the children.
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Re: Amendment One is Passed in North Carolina

Post by dsheinem »

Valkyrie-Favor wrote:I also sympathize for the children.
Yes, it sucks for everyone involved.

That's why I'm glad that the people who find themselves in these situations have the right to decide for themselves what the best course of action should be.
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Re: Amendment One is Passed in North Carolina

Post by BoneSnapDeez »

dsheinem wrote:
Valkyrie-Favor wrote:I also sympathize for the children.
Yes, it sucks for everyone involved.

That's why I'm glad that the people who find themselves in these situations have the right to decide for themselves what the best course of action should be.
Correct.

Also:

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