The Sorry Lives and Confusing Times of Today's Young Men

[dsheinem]

A few more thoughts

A) Can we stop asking "where's the article about women?" or trying to explain that "ok, but there are problems with men and women!"? The article isn't trying to be a balanced and fair portrayal of the life of all 20-somethings, it is specifically an argumentative, opinionated, essay about what this woman (and many others) see as a series of problems/causes with many men in their 20s. Some of the critiques are unfair, but some - especially those about specific differences between men and women of this age group - are well grounded in research and statistics. I think it is more worthwhile to tackle those claims she makes that are well supported and discuss those - attacking the obvious weaknesses is entirely too easy and basically pointless.

B) Can we stop trying to disregard the entire thing as "sexist rant by a scorned woman"? Here's the author's page: http://blogs.phillymag.com/the_philly_p ... shingston/ . Based on what little I can garner from that page, she doesn't seem to me like some scorned woman who is striking out with 25 year olds, she strikes me as a journalist with a sincere interest in what's going on with young adults (perhaps she is a mother of some?).

C) Do you want me to invite her here to jump into our conversation?

In any case, here's her follow up article for some interesting response to feedback: http://blogs.phillymag.com/the_philly_p ... uble-boys/

[brunoafh]

^ That post hurt my head, to be honest. You're asking everyone to stop discussing the most glaringly obvious flaws in the article after asking what our opinions about the (terribly written) article are. Most have agreed she has legitimate points, but overall she has no idea what she's talking about and is seeing the problem through blinders.

Also, please no, do not invite her to the discussion. My head might explode.

[MrPopo]

In any case, here's her follow up article for some interesting response to feedback: http://blogs.phillymag.com/the_philly_p ... uble-boys/

I found the whole sticking point. She can't believe that her friends are all bad parents. Which is reasonable, except there is one single thing that can completely undo 18 years of good parenting: letting your kids know they can move back in once they've left for college. If each one of these parents was willing to say "You can't move back after you graduate/drop out" then I guarantee you'd see a much higher success rate.

[dsheinem]

^ That post hurt my head, to be honest. You're asking everyone to stop discussing the most glaringly obvious flaws in the article after asking what our opinions about the (terribly written) article are. Most have agreed she has legitimate points, but overall she has no idea what she's talking about and is seeing the problem through blinders.

That's fair. I probably didn't explain myself well enough in the OP...

I had the same reaction to the forum reaction to that "Dying consoles" GDC talk video I posted...I guess I was surprised that so many wanted to throw out the baby with the bathwater instead of at least thinking about some of the more valid and interesting claims. It seems people seize on one or two or a few ideas that they find to be quite flawed (e.g. "But I have successful friends in their 20s" or "Games are just the same as any other diversion in history" or "She ignores X") and not actually discuss the points that are reasonably well grounded and try to figure out how those "problems" or their root causes came to be, if a "solution" is needed, what that "solution" might be, etc. (in fairness there's been some of that, but most posts so far are reactionary and dismissive rather than engaging).

Also, please no, do not invite her to the discussion. My head might explode.

That actually makes me want to consider it more

[dedalusdedalus]

What if we're witnessing a societal development where the new norm will be men (and perhaps also women) living with their parents up to their 30s? For most of human history, you were pretty much expected to bear the responsibilities of economic production when you reached the age of 5. The concept of childhood, as we understand it, didn't emerge until perhaps Victorian England. Then the whole concept of being a teenager didn't take hold until the 50s in the US.

If these social changes are indeed being driven by societal and economic changes (namely, the need for more education in a globalized economy with an emphasis on "soft" skill sets rather than manual labor, along with the dismal job market and the high debt loads that often come with higher education), then maybe we just have to accept a new construct of "young adulthood" or whatever else we'll call it, as opposed to dismissing all of these seemingly directionless young men as being in a state of arrested development.

The factors that I and others have pointed to (poor job prospects for the young, the need for more education to compete, and concurrent student debt) should apply equally to women, but it's less visible from a social perspective. A woman who moves back in with her parents after graduation wouldn't feel "emasculated," because she faces a different set of gender expectations.

[dsheinem]

What if we're witnessing a societal development where the new norm will be men (and perhaps also women) living with their parents up to their 30s? For most of human history, you were pretty much expected to bear the responsibilities of economic production when you reached the age of 5. The concept of childhood, as we understand it, didn't emerge until perhaps Victorian England. Then the whole concept of being a teenager didn't take hold until the 50s in the US.

If these social changes are indeed being driven by societal and economic changes (namely, the need for more education in a globalized economy with an emphasis on "soft" skill sets rather than manual labor, along with the dismal job market and the high debt loads that often come with higher education), then maybe we just have to accept a new construct of "young adulthood" or whatever else we'll call it, as opposed to dismissing all of these seemingly directionless young men as being in a state of arrested development.

The factors that I and others have pointed to (poor job prospects for the young, the need for more education to compete, and concurrent student debt) should apply equally to women, but it's less visible from a social perspective. A woman who moves back in with her parents after graduation wouldn't feel "emasculated," because she faces a different set of gender expectations.

^^Very well stated!

[brunoafh]

I had the same reaction to the forum reaction to that "Dying consoles" GDC talk video I posted...I guess I was surprised that so many wanted to throw out the baby with the bathwater instead of at least thinking about some of the more valid and interesting claims. It seems people seize on one or two or a few ideas that they find to be quite flawed (e.g. "But I have successful friends in their 20s" or "Games are just the same as any other diversion in history" or "She ignores X") and not actually discuss the points that are reasonably well grounded and try to figure out how those "problems" or their root causes came to be, if a "solution" is needed, what that "solution" might be, etc. (in fairness there's been some of that, but most posts so far are reactionary and dismissive

But.. some of the points you've addressed here are the very problem. The writer behind these words is blind. I know for a fact you are a highly intelligent person, how can you not see this article as complete shit? Again, I know she raises legitimate concerns. But the article is clouded by silliness. Sexism, irrationality, aggression, insulation, do you not see these as improper tools of dissuasion? The article is permeated with that stuff. It's bunk through and through.

Yes. Youth in their 20s is a major concern for this country. A huge concern. This article though? Typical bullshit.

That actually makes me want to consider it more

...shit. *keeps an eye out for dsheinem beam*

[dsheinem]

Again, I know she raises legitimate concerns. But the article is clouded by silliness. Sexism, irrationality, aggression, insulation, do you not see these as improper tools of dissuasion? The article is permeated with that stuff. It's bunk through and through.

Yes. Youth in their 20s is a major concern for this country. A huge concern. This article though? Typical bullshit.

I guess when I read it I saw echoes of a lot of arguments/complaints/observations that I personally hear from students on a daily basis, so I could corroborate a lot of her anecdotal and "insulated" "tools of dissuasion" with my own experience talking to people in this age demographic. I also thought that her arguments - especially about success in video games substituting for successes in life - might strike a nerve and provoke some interesting discussion.

I don't know that I am picking up the same "sexism" and "aggression" in tone as you and some others are, so I didn't and don't read the article that way (otherwise I'd probably be quicker to want to dismiss it as well).

[gtmtnbiker]

C) Do you want me to invite her here to jump into our conversation?

I think that would be great. Seriously. Nothing wrong with a good debate.

[gtmtnbiker]

I guess when I read it I saw echoes of a lot of arguments/complaints/observations that I personally hear from students on a daily basis, so I could corroborate a lot of her anecdotal and "insulated" "tools of dissuasion" with my own experience talking to people in this age demographic.

I would be interested in hearing the complaints/arguments that you hear from your students. What are the counter-arguments from your students?

Yes. Youth in their 20s is a major concern for this country. A huge concern.

I think this has been a complaint voiced by every preceding generation. Nothing new.