Entrapment

[Breetai]

It's not so much the specific harm being done by the smoking, so much as the parent showing poor judgement which will likely translate into future bad decisions. It's like how you condemn a building for being a fire trap even though no fire has broken out yet.

Except that people are not buildings. There was something more to this story.

[Michi]

Except that people are not buildings.

Tell that to The Commodores:

[o.pwuaioc]

Yes, smoking around a child is bad, but not THAT bad. I'd say ripping a child from its family and placing it into gov't care is MUCH worse child abuse then smoking around it.

Chances of early lung cancer isn't worse than being removed from a terrible household? As someone who was removed from his parents' house, I say you have no idea what you're talking about.

[Luke]

This blueberry pie is delicious.

[Arbitern1]

I run a mile a day and spend at least 30 minutes a day on cardio. I only did it to try and counteract my 2 pack a day habbit. Smoke on those cigs till the day cardiac disease gets me! Grew up in a house with smoking adults and in the back seat of a land barge personal luxury coupe with lighters/ashtreys in every armrests. Didn't bother me too much.

[Hatta]

otherwise we'll see a drastic increase in accidents.

On what do you base this? Marijuana smokers are already under represented in the accident statistics. Before we prohibit something, we should prove first that it's actually dangerous. Right now, the balance of the evidence indicates that people who smoke pot are aware of their degree of impairment, unlike alcohol users. That means they are better able to judge when they are too impaired to drive, and they're also better able to compensate for their impairment.

If anything, when Cannabis is legalized we'll see at least some of the population switch from recreational alcohol to recreational THC. I predict that will lead to a net decrease in deaths on the roads.

Too many parents are irresponsible, and while it isn't the responsibility of the state to be a parent, it is the responsibility of the state to protect kids from moronic and harmful parents

What is the actual risk of harm from second hand smoke? How many deaths will occur if it's allowed? How does this compare to risks we already tolerate as a society? Put some numbers on this, and then we can have a reasonable discussion about it. Raising the spectre of risk without considering the magnitude of the risk is just fear mongering.

Also, keep in mind that marijuana smoke is not tobacco smoke. There's no evidence that even first hand marijuana smoke causes cancer. The evidence for first hand marijuana smoke causing respiratory diseases like emphaseyma is better, but there's little evidence that second hand smoke of any kind causes such problems.

A clear plan for how to legalize it.

Cannabis belongs in the grocery store somewhere between the coffee and chocolate. Other drugs should be treated like alcohol.

[dsheinem]

conjecture about accidents and secondhand smoke

Put some numbers on this, and then we can have a reasonable discussion about it.

The irony must burn like a thousand suns.

Also, keep in mind that marijuana smoke is not tobacco smoke. There's no evidence that even first hand marijuana smoke causes cancer. The evidence for first hand marijuana smoke causing respiratory diseases like emphaseyma is better, but there's little evidence that second hand smoke of any kind causes such problems.

My problem is less with the cancer than it is with the damage to developing brains and an unavoidable second-hand high (though all are realistic concerns). It's one thing to inhale secondhand smoke from cigarettes and risk some potential health problems down the road. It is even worse, in my opinion, to subject children who can't leave a room or house to actual mental and physical effects from being high, even though they don't want to be.

Cannabis belongs in the grocery store somewhere between the coffee and chocolate. Other drugs should be treated like alcohol.

See, this is not a position that is really tenable -it is too extreme to be taken seriously. If I could see a reasonable plan from legalization activists for incremental change that protects non-users from potential harms while also providing freedoms to those who want to smoke, then I could get behind it. I haven't seen that.

[Hatta]

conjecture about accidents and secondhand smoke

Put some numbers on this, and then we can have a reasonable discussion about it.

The irony must burn like a thousand suns.

You think I don't have research to back up my statements here? The government has done plenty of studies on cannabis and driving, looking really, really hard for something they could use to demonize it. They've come up empty handed. I can pull together some references when I have some time if you want.

It is even worse, in my opinion, to subject children who can't leave a room or house to actual mental and physical effects from being high, even though they don't want to be.

This is not a reasonable fear. If second hand smoke were enough to cause psychological effects, we'd see nicotine addicted children everywhere. We don't, and nicotine is active at concentrations 10 times lower than those at which THC is active.

Those stories you hear about people getting high from being in the same car or closet as a smoker are really just the placebo effect.

Cannabis belongs in the grocery store somewhere between the coffee and chocolate. Other drugs should be treated like alcohol.

See, this is not a position that is really tenable -it is too extreme to be taken seriously.

If you actually look at what we're doing, the war on drugs is too extreme to be taken seriously. This is nothing short of an atrocity.

Declaring drug peace in America isn't any more extreme than declaring equality of the sexes would be in Saudi Arabia. In both cases, it's not the extremity of the measure that's the problem. It's old conservatives who are more concerned about being right than doing the right thing.

In other words, you might be right that it's too extreme to be workable in America. But that's not Cannabis's fault. That's America's fault. Decades of anti-drug bigotry has hardened our hearts to a relatively easy and compassionate solution to a major problem.

If I could see a reasonable plan from legalization activists for incremental change that protects non-users from potential harms while also providing freedoms to those who want to smoke, then I could get behind it. I haven't seen that.

[/quote]

I've yet to see any credible evidence that there would be any significant harms to non smokers at all.

You also ignore the fact that non-smokers pay a large part of the costs of sustaining this drug war, both in taxes and loss of civil liberties. Even if there were significant harms to non-smokers from legalized cannabis, they would have to be ENORMOUS to offset the harms that the war on drugs.

Go ahead and watch that Glenn Greenwald video I posted. Try and find benefits to the drug war that would offset the costs he details.

[dsheinem]

You think I don't have research to back up my statements here? The government has done plenty of studies on cannabis and driving, looking really, really hard for something they could use to demonize it. They've come up empty handed. I can pull together some references when I have some time if you want.

I'd like to see some credible, correlated research from people with actual expertise in the area, yes.

Those stories you hear about people getting high from being in the same car or closet as a smoker are really just the placebo effect.

Really? You can't get a high off of second hand pot smoke at all? Again, I want some evidence of this. If it's true, then I'm happy to remove that objection.

Decades of anti-drug bigotry has hardened our hearts to a relatively easy and compassionate solution to a major problem.

recognizing the problem isn't the same as presenting a tenable solution. you have to work within your circumstances to change them.

Even if there were significant harms to non-smokers from legalized cannabis, they would have to be ENORMOUS to offset the harms that the war on drugs.

This is why I am in favor of decriminalization instead of legalization. I still think that there should be some penalty for using pot given the still-not-unproven concerns I raised above. I think those penalties should be consistent with the crime, though. We don't need the massive drug war which primarily benefits the prison and pharmaceutical industries. We do need sensible deterrents to keep people from wanting to use drugs indiscriminately and sensible solutions for those who want to do so in a safe manner (such as clinics).

Go ahead and watch that Glenn Greenwald video I posted. Try and find benefits to the drug war that would offset the costs he details.

[/quote]

When i can find the time, I will. How long is it?

Look, I appreciate you tackling my points, but you still haven't done more than refute me without evidence. The burden of proof is on you, as you want the law changed. I am genuinely looking for reasons to more fully support some kind of legalization program, but as of yet you haven't provided more than your own second hand understanding of some research you read.

[Luke]

I've always hated the "pick apart a written argument sentence by sentence" approach, but I do want to say a few things.

As far as pot affecting someones ability to drive: Oh it is true. Pot changes your judgment, which in turn changes your decision making process, which in turn changes the way you drive. How do I know? My friend once drove through his garage door while stoned because his foot was "way too heavy".

A contact high is not a placebo effect if hazing in a small area. How do I know? Use your imagination.

The argument that drugs should be at grocery stores between coffee and chocolate doesn't make sense, and I don't think Hatta meant that to be taken literally. That would mean kids would have equal access to the drug, and I doubt Hatta meant to imply that drugs should be accessible to everyone.

That said if drugs were available at grocery stores, I hope you dope smokers would go to The Fresh Market or Whole Foods. Those stores bring nothing but quality.