High difficulty JRPGs

[AppliCotton]

excellent storytelling involves telling more with less, but that is hardly JRPG game's forte right?

Huh? Seriously? I don't know how you define telling a story, but I disagree. It's not a story in the sense of what we would more accurately call a "plot": who did what to whom and when and where and what happened next. It's in the way the colors progress as you move through the game, the way even as an adult, running into warmech in Final Fantasy makes you jump. It's in the way advancing to a new part of the map is dramatic: Yuji Horii, Dragon Warrior's creator, is especially proud of his map designs, you can tell he spent hours trying to figure out where each little pixelized mountain should go. He also plays through the games again and again during development, and one legend has him yelling at a programmer because the doors opened too fast. It's like who's ever going to notice something like that? But if you've ever had the chance to listen to a master storyteller, you'll know that it's all in the details and the placement of even the tiniest, superficially most meaningless words. Actually, I think that Japanese in general can impart that sense of story or tale even to shoot 'em ups with no dialogue.

[ZeroAX]

First of all more with less is the smartest way to tell a story imo.

For example, don't tell me a character is a good person because of his moral upbringing, cause his mother loved him, cause of this, cause of that. Tell me that person had to make a choice between what is easy and wrong and what is hard but right and he did the good yet harder thing.

In a game, don't have a character recite teenage poetry and stuff about the world, show him being in actual pain (which imo should have an impact on the gameplay).



I'm sorry, maybe some game designers, but 99% of Japanese media (games, comics, movies) that becomes popular in the west is aimed at teenagers, and thus is in reality skin deep.....pretentious, if you will



Now if you really want to discuss in what way a story should be told in video games, go make a thread in the Games as culture section and I'll be happy to join you

[AppliCotton]

First of all more with less is the smartest way to tell a story imo.

For example, don't tell me a character is a good person because of his moral upbringing, cause his mother loved him, cause of this, cause of that. Tell me that person had to make a choice between what is easy and wrong and what is hard but right and he did the good yet harder thing.

In a game, don't have a character recite teenage poetry and stuff about the world, show him being in actual pain (which imo should have an impact on the gameplay).



I'm sorry, maybe some game designers, but 99% of Japanese media (games, comics, movies) that becomes popular in the west is aimed at teenagers, and thus is in reality skin deep.....pretentious, if you will



Now if you really want to discuss in what way a story should be told in video games, go make a thread in the Games as culture section and I'll be happy to join you

Yeah, that sounded like a blatant generalization on my part. God no, I certainly didn't mean to say that all or even most of the loli smut coming out of Japan is good or deep. It's just a fact that the handful of game designers (or manga artists or film directors) who know how to tell a story the way I defined it above come from Japan (or, in the case of film directors, the Far East). It's a different way of looking at things that I think is missing in the West in general, not just in video games...

But I think I'll pass on that thread...

[mobiusclimber]

The only really "difficult" thing in FFL is that you can screw up and lose valuable, plot-necessary items and then have no way of advancing, and have to start all over. There's one point where you need to use different colored orbs, but you can also combine them (and you need to, just later on). If you combine them before you use them separately, you can't advance the plot and so are stuck, only able to restart the game.

For some recommendations, someone else mentioned Phantasy Star II. I'll second that and add the first Phantasy Star. For a real challenge, don't use guides (even the manual that came w/ the game). Figure out the spells and items on your own, make your own maps (or don't, haha!) and just sit down in front of the tv and play em.

[AppliCotton]

The only really "difficult" thing in FFL is that you can screw up and lose valuable, plot-necessary items and then have no way of advancing, and have to start all over. There's one point where you need to use different colored orbs, but you can also combine them (and you need to, just later on). If you combine them before you use them separately, you can't advance the plot and so are stuck, only able to restart the game.

For some recommendations, someone else mentioned Phantasy Star II. I'll second that and add the first Phantasy Star. For a real challenge, don't use guides (even the manual that came w/ the game). Figure out the spells and items on your own, make your own maps (or don't, haha!) and just sit down in front of the tv and play em.

I often get to wondering what would happen if you lose a mission-critical item in these games... I've even indulged my curiosity by trying to sell the keys in Dragon Warrior (he won't buy them) But that you could really just screw yourself like that, that's awesome. One more reason I have to give it a shot.

And Phantasy Star I and II are both on my to play list. Although to be honest, I'm really put off by the dungeons. I find that minimal first person view to be extremely confusing... I mean I always end up getting lost in Goonies II But yeah, I've heard nothing but good things so sooner or later I'll have to get some graph paper and suck it up

[MrPopo]

Phantasy Star 2's dungeons are much worse than 1's. 1's can be easily graphed, as there are no spinners or teleports, only pitfalls that are 1-to-1 with the floor above. Phantasy Star 2 is massively maze-like and has a terrible overlay that was "look at the graphics" but makes things incredibly hard to navigate. Not to mention an insane random encounter rate.

[Breetai]

Dear Mike,

I recommend Phantasy Star and Phantasy Star II. To a lesser extent, Phantasy Star III. They seem to fit what you like about Dragon Warrior II. Phantasy Star IV is pretty easy in comparison.

[Valkyrie-Favor]

Valkyrie Profile 2 has some awesome difficulty spikes pretty early in the game. The combat system is really interesting. Once you master the mechanics and start instant-killing weaker monsters you might still have trouble because of the formation etc. There are a few places where grinding is required or where you have to play with 2 characters when the game is balanced for 4. There are also some easier parts but the game as a whole is just super awesome. Gorgeous graphics, awesome music, decent story with great characters, and my favorite RPG battle system ever.

First Valkyrie Profile isn't as hard on a battle-per-battle basis, but you can fail the whole game 40 hours in if you don't train your army properly. Besides enjoying the gameplay/music/graphics the object is to recruit the souls of slain warriors and train them for service in Asgard. They're supposed to fight in Ragnarok and if you screw it up too bad the world ends. There's also a limited amount of time you have to do this and thus a limited amount of EXP to go around. Play Hard mode.

Tactics Ogre and Final Fantasy Tactics remakes on PSP. They retain the original difficulty but have revised scripts and stuff. The Fire Emblem games can get pretty tough too.

FF4 on PSX is challenging if you don't go grinding. If you enter a dungeon when you're not overpowered, regular encounters can kill you.

In any game with leveling mechanics and unlimited battles you can make it way too easy by grinding - how long this takes depends on the game. I try not to grind and really enjoy it that way, unless the grinding is required. I can still enjoy it then as long as the battles are fun