World is Falling Apart Thread (Locked forever)

[ZeroAX]

Israel is more reliable than Turkey for a few reasons.

This is going to sound kinda nuts but one benefit we have because of Israel is that they simply exist right where they are. A lot of the threats we face are easier to anticipate and deflect in part because we can expect Israel to bear the brunt of it. The opportunity cost of traveling to the Gaza strip to start trouble is far lower than getting to the continental US.

How so? Turkey is less religious than Israel, and cause of the thread from Russia was a better US ally. If the west hadn't pushed them away the past decade, maybe their current Islamic Hitle....I meant prime minister, wouldn't be such a strong force in their politics.

um......you do know all those threats are because we've fucked up the middle east for cheap oil right? And that if we spent all the money that went into all those wars in the middle east on researching renewable/alternative energy sources the world would be a better place...

[MrPopo]

Israel is more reliable than Turkey for a few reasons.

This is going to sound kinda nuts but one benefit we have because of Israel is that they simply exist right where they are. A lot of the threats we face are easier to anticipate and deflect in part because we can expect Israel to bear the brunt of it. The opportunity cost of traveling to the Gaza strip to start trouble is far lower than getting to the continental US.

How so? Turkey is less religious than Israel, and cause of the thread from Russia was a better US ally. If the west hadn't pushed them away the past decade, maybe their current Islamic Hitle....I meant prime minister, wouldn't be such a strong force in their politics.

um......you do know all those threats are because we've fucked up the middle east for cheap oil right? And that if we spent all the money that went into all those wars in the middle east on researching renewable/alternative energy sources the world would be a better place...

Israel being religious isn't a huge issue because they aren't belligerent about it. Additionally, Israel has a huge amount of emotional capital built up because of the Holocaust; after that horrific event the Jews finally managed to carve out a place for themselves instead of relying on the good will of their host countries. And if you look at the current world demographics, it's 1/3 of the Jews are in the US, 1/3 are in Israel, and 1/3 are spread across the rest of the globe. That gets them more sympathy points, especially when you consider how dominated by Jews certain aspects of the US is.

[Flake]

How so? Turkey is less religious than Israel, and cause of the thread from Russia was a better US ally. If the west hadn't pushed them away the past decade, maybe their current Islamic Hitle....I meant prime minister, wouldn't be such a strong force in their politics.

um......you do know all those threats are because we've fucked up the middle east for cheap oil right? And that if we spent all the money that went into all those wars in the middle east on researching renewable/alternative energy sources the world would be a better place...

Religion really does not matter here. When you are choosing your allies, religion is never a concern. Turkey is a lesser choice because while they are usually in line with what we want, they align more closely with Europe than us. They are useful, to be true, but not as capable or vital as Israel.

Middle Eastern oil is really just a small aspect of the turmoil. Most of what we are looking at actually started about 65 years ago.

[BoringSupreez]

We have a large Jewish population, which is naturally sympathetic to Israel. It's in our leader's best interests to ally with Israel if they want to stay in office. Besides, what's wrong with coming to the aid of a nation that's constantly bullied by it's neighbors? We did it for Kuwait, after all.

um....Israel bullied by its neighbors? .......yeah.....let's try taking Missouri and giving it to Muslims, I'm sure it will go well.

For the record, the UK gave Israel to the Jews, not us. Jewish Israel is established, and looks to be here to stay. Might as well deal with it they way it is, instead of thinking about how things should have been. Besides, it's not like Muslims aren't allowed to live in Israel. They're largely upset at the moment because it isn't an Islamic theocracy, and because there are Jews living there. They consider this blasphemous.

EDIT

And I'm sorry, I thought we left politics based on religion in the middle ages...

That's not going anywhere anytime soon either.

[ZeroAX]

Israel being religious isn't a huge issue because they aren't belligerent about it. Additionally, Israel has a huge amount of emotional capital built up because of the Holocaust; after that horrific event the Jews finally managed to carve out a place for themselves instead of relying on the good will of their host countries. And if you look at the current world demographics, it's 1/3 of the Jews are in the US, 1/3 are in Israel, and 1/3 are spread across the rest of the globe. That gets them more sympathy points, especially when you consider how dominated by Jews certain aspects of the US is.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/wor ... 86,00.html

And I'm sorry, why should they have their own country in the place they didn't belong? They hadn't lived in that area for centuries. Give them a part of Germany after WW2 (the surrounding countries took parts of pre-WW2 Germany after the war). Don't kick out someone's neighbor, and then expect them not to get angry at it.

Oh really? Emotional capital? Like the Armenians had? How about you give a state to Native Americans so they can have their own country?

What's done is done. I'm not saying Israel should be destroyed, or its people kicked out of the land. But trying to give Israel the moral high ground is insulting.

EDIT

I removed the part about having given the Jews a part of the US, cause I had no idea it was a British idea :S. I thought after WW2 they'd be picking up the pieces of their country, not coming up with retarded ideas like putting people who were just prosecuted for their religion, between people who like different religions even less than Europe did at the time.

EDIT 2

Turkey is a lesser choice because while they are usually in line with what we want, they align more closely with Europe than us. They are useful, to be true, but not as capable or vital as Israel.

Really? That's ironic. In Europe we think that Turkey is more of an American influenced country . Though Erdogan hopes of creating the Muslim EU, so I don't think he likes being influenced by anyone....too bad all the Arabs hate his country so much.

[Hatta]

A better analogy would be if people were constantly starting bar fights with you because you were different from the other people in the bar and expecting your friends to help you buy new clothes after you finish taking care of business.

I'll believe the Israelis have clean hands in the conflict when they stop committing war crimes against the Palestinians and building settlements in contested areas.

Middle Eastern oil is really just a small aspect of the turmoil. Most of what we are looking at actually started about 65 years ago.

Very true. Nothing good happens when the West creates states by fiat.

[MrPopo]

A better analogy would be if people were constantly starting bar fights with you because you were different from the other people in the bar and expecting your friends to help you buy new clothes after you finish taking care of business.

I'll believe the Israelis have clean hands in the conflict when they stop committing war crimes against the Palestinians and building settlements in contested areas.

I never said they had clean hands. No one EVER has clean hands when it comes to international turmoil. The Israelis do some bad shit and so do the Palestinians and other Arabs in the area.

Remember, your original statement was that loyalty was not a virtue. I drew the logical conclusion as to how that applies to your own life.

Middle Eastern oil is really just a small aspect of the turmoil. Most of what we are looking at actually started about 65 years ago.

Very true. Nothing good happens when anyone creates states by fiat.

Fixed that for you.

Oh really? Emotional capital? Like the Armenians had? How about you give a state to Native Americans so they can have their own country?

I'm not excusing anyone's actions; there are a lot of bad things that happen. But the Jews do get the most coverage of anyone, and as I mentioned that's due to how dominated certain aspects of the US are by the Jews (such as media).

And I'm sorry, why should they have their own country in the place they didn't belong? They hadn't lived in that area for centuries. Give them a part of Germany after WW2 (the surrounding countries took parts of pre-WW2 Germany after the war). Don't kick out someone's neighbor, and then expect them not to get angry at it.

They didn't exactly vacate it by choice. Your solution is no different from the current solution; no matter where the Jews ended up it was kicking out someone's neighbor. It seemed reasonable for them to set up in an area they had a historical claim to.

[Flake]

The Middle East was, as odd as it sounds, the logical place to establish a Jewish state after WWII. Millions upon millions of displaced Jews...where were they to go? Back to the Hinterland? Russia? Britain and France were in no shape to take them on.

The Middle East had no strong states back then. Even Egypt was a mess. The post-Ottoman states were already being carved up, so it actually made a really weird sense to put the Jewish people there. I cannot help but think that this situation would be unfolding no matter where the modern day Jewish state was founded.

[ZeroAX]

I still think Europe was a better idea. They took those lands from Germany and gave them to Poland (another country which has greatly suffered, but anyway), why not create a Jewish state there?



After the holocaust no one would have protested, and it's morally more correct than taking the land from the people who had NOTHING to do with the holocaust.

They didn't exactly vacate it by choice. Your solution is no different from the current solution; no matter where the Jews ended up it was kicking out someone's neighbor. It seemed reasonable for them to set up in an area they had a historical claim to.

*cough* *cough*



And if you are wondering, up to 80 years ago my ancestors lived where it says Trapezus. As you see historical claim is not only something quite hard to define, it also gives rise to far right and militaristic feelings. Greece's foreign policy used to be to unite all lands in which Greeks lived, which before the forced population exchange, meant half of Turkey, south Albania some of Bulgaria's lands ect. ect.

Of course we weren't the only ones. Bulgarians, Serbs, Turks, Albanians all were like that,
And what did that lead to? Well.....you know what the Balkans are like, right?


So using that kind of rhetoric has put Israel in the tough spot of not being able to back down, cause they say it's "their" holy land. And without compromise by both sides there can never be peace. And if the richer => more educated people aren't willing to compromise, what do you expect from the other side?

[Flake]

Well ZeroAX, I guess I'll bring it up. I'd hoped to avoid mentioning this but...

...They were Jews. And Jews have not really been welcomed anywhere since the time of the Pharaohs. They were not given reclaimed German territory in Europe because it was an opportunity to get rid of all the Jews and Roma in one fell swoop. While people did not wish for them to die, you have to understand that antisemitism was not always the domain of militant Islamic dogma or displaced Palestinians. Europeans had been hating people for being Jewish ever since there were Jewish people to hate. I laugh when Christians around me talk about how they are 'persecuted' because they have nothing on the Chosen tribe. You'll notice that bringing the Jews to the US would have been just as easy / difficult as moving them all the way to the Middle East but I have never read anywhere that that was even contemplated.

So yeah - it was politically expedient and culturally convenient to put the Jews in modern day Israel. Since oil production was only just being realized as the economic force it would become, no one thought for a second that all these mega-powerful Islamic states would sprout up from the fragments of the Ottoman Empire to contest the Jewish Settlement. It was terribly shortsighted.