the question of emulation?!

[RCBH928]

Hello everyone...

I wanted to open a topic on emulation. As everyone knows emulation is one form of piracy if you do not own the original cartridge-cd or whatever.

Yet for me, I think this is not a form of piracy at all. Ill explain why...

The developer is not making this game any more, the manufacturer of the console is not selling any new ones any more (i am talking about ps1, n64, snes emulation not ps2 and 360)...So basically any money you are paying for the game will not go to who deserve it. People who worked on the game and console have got their return long ago and moved on with their lives. So am not stealing am I? Even if i wanted to not steal, please tell me how to pay the developer for the game? There is probably no way.

Plus it makes more sense to play these games on the pc. To have them stored in your machine is much more relaxing than adding ps1 or n64 on your tv table and buying the cartridge (sometime more expensive than its original price!) and you have to worry about durability and condition of both. add to that extra electricity and power used not to mention all the wiring, and even worse if you buy an import that needs electricity adaptor .

The only way I see this hurting the developer is two ways:
1) the game will have bad resale value. Overtime, maybe it would hurt the developer that his games are not selling as well second hand. I think games that are rare with high price give extra prestige and fame to its developer .

2) If the game is put on VC, xbox arcade, or psn I believe you should pay for it since the developer still trying to make money out of it and theyd eserve it, but how many games are going to be avalible by this form? specially that i hear sometimes you can purchase a game for lower price than its vc,arcade,psn price!? I mean some games for the nes REALLY does not deserve $5 o even $10, not in this era...thats like selling an am radio that can hold one channel in 2008 for $30! come on! i can get FM with ton of channels for lot less... yet i still think you should pay them

Now why I think emulation is actually good!?
Well , I think that after some years the developer and creators do not mind people emulating their game, because they all have been paid and there is not much to get from that game any way even if they resold it now days, but emulation can get them fame adn appreciation. Can you imagine all the people who never played snes and genesis titles and are just able to play them now? and for free? they will check everything! I think if i created a game(or piece of art or a book) long time after i got all i deserve from its sales...i would really care about how much people would appreciate my work and praise it and the fame it will get me.

Add to that, playing a game based on a movie or a book or a wrestling character, can build fame for these people. MOvie studios might get new sales, a wrestler will get a new fan , an actor too. Game developers might make money from chrono trigger much more, or disney might not sell another aladdin snes game,,,,but they will all benefit when people say "this game made game X, he must be good, ill buy his new game" or "This company that made that movie aladdin, it has high quality, Ill watch their next movie"....disney is famous enough but u get the idea.

I think emulation is the only kind of free distribution that actually benefits its creators and people involved in it. I think this can not happen with movies/music/shows is because these companies always rebenefit from their work, their medium is spread. They always can take that show/movie from film to vhs, then to dvd, then to HD, then to downloadable movie. Music can be taken from cartridge to tape, to cd, to ipod.
BUT games, games are made for specific period of time for a specific console. They also lose a ton of value over time(doom is not fun any more), yet a song from the 1800 might still be good and fun today, a movie made in 1952 is still good and entertaining to watch today.

this is only broken when VC and arcade are out, but think of it, not game will come out for them only chosen ones. you can also add in the fact that some games will never see the light of day like goldeneye and banjoo kazooe where the developer for the game is bought by microsoft, and the console it was made for was for nintendo. So you cant see it on arcade or VC.....while i dont believe this in any way can happen with music or tv...

so , let them legalize meulatioN!

[lordofduct]

first, I ain't gonna lie. I have used several emulators through out the years. I remember when Nesticle came out back in April 97' and my buddy John and I downloaded it immediately off of irc channels.

But I have to go against the most common thing people have to say about it: "The developer is not making this game any more, and thusly not making money off of it anymore"

I somewhat agree, but, there is something here we are missing out on. Intellectual rights cover much more then the right to sale the original copy of a game. It also covers the right to protect any manipulation of the product and the re-release of the game.

There's the first simple side of it. Some games have the rights held so that in the future the game can be re-released. May it be via a compilation pack (which is also a way to extend the lifetime of your rights), remake, Virtual downloads (like Wii VC), etc. The rom technically can hurt the sales of these re-releases.

Roms also hurt the integrity of the product as it allows the code to be broken easily and hacks of the games to be made. This may not seem like a big deal to a lot of people. But again, technically it is against the law. I mean shit, technically, fan fiction is a breech of intellectual rights. This is more of a complicated subject as the Rights themselves only cover certain things about integrity of the product. And those rights change from media type to media type.

For instance, the rights that cover the integrity of any characters invented by the great Kurt Vonnegut Jr. are completely different from the rights that protect the integrity of Sonic the Hedgehog (though trademark also protects Sonic as well as basic intellectual rights). I can't go out and write any story in which Kiltrout partakes... it would be confusing to the reader for any personality I give Kiltrout in my story, a very beloved character by the Vonnegut fans. The big problem here is that most people don't understand the rights, and might consider my story to be a legitimate extension, and then the personality traits I instill on him would then alter the views of Kiltrout as a character influencing the imaginitive process of readers the next time they pick up "Breakfast of Champions". But in the same respect, Sonic isn't protected as tightly like this... hence why things like fan fiction are some what negligable. And certainly don't ask me what the differences are specifically as I'm not a publisher, it isn't my job to know.

When it comes to this protection of integrity though, it can start treading on terrain that people would be left scratching their heads and asking "why, and where are my rights?" Well that's the things, you as the user really don't have any rights. Hence why most products you buy with these intellectual rights supply End User License Agreements, or a license description on the back cover. That's what it is exactly, you don't own rights to the product... none what so ever. You have licensed a single copy of the product.

And a majority of these licenses specifically state even that you can not "copy" their work. This includes "backing up". So even though you believe you own this thing... you don't... you licensed it. It's software, it's protected, and by all technicality a ROM is illegal even if you own an original copy.

Then again this all is debatable, because well... that is what democratic law is about... debate. But that is for the courts, and not the interwebs.



It isn't a matter of how morally justifiable the process is. The rights are what they are, and until proven otherwise in the court, you are breaking the law. You aren't supposed to breech them, no matter who it isn't hurting. But hey, there's tons of laws like this. Now whatever makes it seem OK in your book to break the law is fine, but in the same right, I bet there are tons of people who justify their stealing, laundering, racketeering, drug use, and blah blah blah...

[racketboy]

Emulation isn't illegal in the first place.
In fact, there are many commercial emulators in place.
Also, I would think that if you own a legal copy of the game, having the ROM and emulating it is fair use.
It would be just like having a CD and ripping/playing an MP3 of the music.

I'm not a lawyer and I haven't found all the verbage or the revisions, but supposedly there is a recent amendment to the DMCA that mentions media that is on a format that is no longer being produced and requires hardware that is no longer widely available (or something like that)
I would be interested in learning more details about that and how it applies to classic games.

[D.D.D.]

Lordofduct just said what I was intending to say. So, what he said.

[Ivo]

(When I say ROMs I mean .isos etc as well)

There are two types of things we can discuss - the "ethics" and the "legality". I'm no lawyer, and the laws are different in different countries. It may even be illegal to lend your copy of a game (which to me is very non-intuitive if true - it may not be)... The Hellgate: London DVD has "do not loan or copy this" on it (but maybe it's just so they can wash their hands in case a user complains about his "friend" using his CD-Key or something)...

I'd like to add some considerations to the "ethics" part of the debate that I don't often see mentioned.

When people say "Buying games second hand won't benefit authors anyway", are they intentionally or unintentionally neglecting that the 2nd hand seller may very well put these funds into buying new games?
Some of those 2nd hand sellers may have purchased the game 2nd hand themselves, but down the line someone has purchased it new. And by selling their old games, they may have partially funded the purchase of other new games.

Another factor... By having access to these "free" games, you are using up your free time on them - I know many people that are time (not money) limited in their entertainment, so perhaps they'd buy new games if they didn't download ROMs.

So it's really not as black and white as "I'm not hurting anyone". It's obviously also not as black and white as "downloading ROMs is just like stealing from the authors", as in many cases people that download and play that ROM wouldn't otherwise have played that (or other) games.

Ivo.

[Doctor Fugue]

Whomever creates deserves perpetual control until he gives up his rights. No amount of rationalization from a consumer can make it correct to circumvent the creator's intentions. Unfortunately this is nearly impossible to implement or police when distribution occurs on any level.

[racketboy]

The "time" issue is a good point that I don't remember being brought up before.

[RCBH928]

I hate how the law works, specially that it makes things in some ways like (its here, but you cant buy), and a good example would be an old game that you can only play on emulation but the developer wont release it on any today availible platform...

I guess there can be a solution. Its a bit insane but I am sure that every one will benefit from it highly.

I think by law that all game developers should release two versions of their games, one in the form for the console (cartridge for N64, cd for dreamcast), and a universal accepted form(like pdf for documents, i guess JPG too), and to protect console manufacturers...the second copy is not released until the console it was made to work on is discontinued of manufacturing (so yes for ps1 emulation but no for ps2 emulation,even if ps3 exists).

They can have like the iTunes store, but its iGame. This way, every one can benefit and appreciate all the good gaming, and game developers can benefit of continuos earnings as long as people are buying their games, and i guess there is a good chance people will buy their games as long as babies keep being born...because i am sure a baby born today...ten years in the future wants to play maroi galaxy!

I think the consumer will benefit, the developers will benefit, the console manufacturer will be safe...its a win win situation...imagine you can continue to get money from a game you made 10-20 years earlier!!

If this has happened before....People that created Secret Mana would never dream that in the year 2008 they will still get money benefits from creating that game back in the early 90's!

roms and emulation can be treated like illegal movie downloads and music. I guess its fair for everyone

[lordofduct]

I hate how the law works, specially that it makes things in some ways like (its here, but you cant buy), and a good example would be an old game that you can only play on emulation but the developer wont release it on any today availible platform...

I guess there can be a solution. Its a bit insane but I am sure that every one will benefit from it highly.

I think by law that all game developers should release two versions of their games, one in the form for the console (cartridge for N64, cd for dreamcast), and a universal accepted form(like pdf for documents, i guess JPG too), and to protect console manufacturers...the second copy is not released until the console it was made to work on is discontinued of manufacturing (so yes for ps1 emulation but no for ps2 emulation,even if ps3 exists).

They can have like the iTunes store, but its iGame. This way, every one can benefit and appreciate all the good gaming, and game developers can benefit of continuos earnings as long as people are buying their games, and i guess there is a good chance people will buy their games as long as babies keep being born...because i am sure a baby born today...ten years in the future wants to play maroi galaxy!

I think the consumer will benefit, the developers will benefit, the console manufacturer will be safe...its a win win situation...imagine you can continue to get money from a game you made 10-20 years earlier!!

If this has happened before....People that created Secret Mana would never dream that in the year 2008 they will still get money benefits from creating that game back in the early 90's!

roms and emulation can be treated like illegal movie downloads and music. I guess its fair for everyone

><

brain go, what?

They can do whatever they want with their games. That's what makes it theirs.

If I painted a painting, I don't want anyone telling me that if I sell my painting to some high bidder that I also have to release prints of it as well. Or if I make a movie and play it in the theatres I have to release it on VHS, DVD, itunes, youtube, data punch card, celluloid, etc (yes blatant exaggeration)... and what about change in technology? PDF and jpeg won't be around forever. Should I have to make sure that the media stays up to date so people in the future can continue watching my movie despite the change in technology?

That's like telling Edison he should of foreseen Halogen bulbs and preemptively subjected his invention to secure happy user/manufacturer relations.

That's not my job, I painted the painting, I made the movie. If you love it so much, be happy I released it as is!

[ott0bot]

I think emualtion is ok when the game has never been released on a consule. the only way most of us are going to be able to play arcade games is through MAME.

This being said, I'm pretty sure all emualtion unless you own the game is technically illegal. Will you be prosecuted? probly not. Unless you are making copies and selling it. And I'm pretty sure emulating games that are no longer made won't get you into legal trouble, unless it's released on PSN, X-Box live or VC. It's pretty much all about money. If someone is trying to make money off of a product and you are using for free, you are more likely to get prosecuted.