Anonymous strikes again

[MrPopo]

So are you saying that Sony SHOULDN'T be able to protect their IPs, even though currently they are allowed to? I'm trying to figure out how things would work if you had your way.

They should be able to protect their IPs, but not if it means punishing their legitimate customers.

For example, if there was a website that was selling pirated PS3 games, I think Sony should be allowed to shut them down. They shouldn't be allowed to require a constant internet connection in order to play games.

They should be able to sue companies who make blatant rip offs of their games. They shouldn't be able to have bullshit like online pass.

See the difference? It's fine to fight back against people who are truly doing harm to you. It's not right to punish your paying customers and treat them like pirates.

So you're against proactive prevention of piracy.

[Hobie-wan]

This thread is of course already a mess. This may derail it further. Hold on everyone!

It's true that Sony removed the Other OS feature in a required firmware update. That was a feature that we paid for on launch. You can't just take it away like that.

If you chose not to update your PS3 and lose Other OS, you were unable to access PSN. That's not right.

The judge ruled in favor for the bad guys, so yeah, it is likely that he was bribed. That's how the world works, you know. Money is everything.

Ok, Sony made it that if you want these new features over here, you upgrade the firmware and lose those features over there. You think they're evil for that. Fair enough position. Unfortunately EULAs are generally written to cover things and say "we reserve the right to change blah blah..." Everyone examined the EULA when they first got their PS3 and understood every word and implication of it, right?

For the record, I think it is a dick move on Sony's part too even though I probably wouldn't use other OS even if I had an older PS3, so please everyone don't jump on me for siding with Sony.

Here in the reseal game auction thread you say:

I don't have a problem with this. They didn't read the title or description at all, so they have no one to blame but themselves.

Exactly how big does a a boilerplate or a corporation get before you switch sides from pointing the finger of blame at the buyer to the seller?

I'll also quote from this very thread and highlight the parts that apply to the reseal seller situation.

I've said it many times before, and I'll say it again. Just because something is legal, doesn't make it right. Also, just because something is illegal, doesn't make it wrong.

[Inazuma]

Nice try Hobie, but you failed to see the difference. If someone is selling a resealed game on Ebay and they make that perfectly clear in the description, then the buyer knows ahead of time exactly what he is buying. And once you buy the game, that's it. The seller can't come to your house and change the game at all. What's so bad about properly describing what you are selling? There is nothing wrong about that. There are plenty of Ebay listings that barely describe the item at all. You should complain about those instead. They could very well be leaving out some important information.

You are right that the PS3's TOS mentions that Sony can change anything they want. Most TOS's are like this. They basically all say "We can do anything we want and you can't do anything about it.". The thing is, we don't know for sure exactly what they will end up doing. It's fair to assume that future updates may add features, fix bugs, etc, but to completely remove a feature like with Other OS doesn't happen that often. Just because we knew that there was a chance of something like that happening, doesn't mean we shouldn't have the right to complain about it.

What if Sony upgraded the console to disable the Blu Ray drive? According to the TOS, they could legally do that. I don't care if I agreed to it or if it's legal. It's bullshit. Just because Other OS is a minor feature doesn't make it any different.

[MrPopo]

Nice try Hobie, but you failed to see the difference.

There is no difference. It is plainly listed out for you in each instance what exactly is up. The games are reseals. Sony can do whatever they want with their updates. You were the one who naively believed that Sony would only do things you approved of.

[nightrnr]

Am I the only one who kind of rolls my eyes every time I have to do a TOS agreement before enjoying the item or software that I bought?

I think most people just glaze over it and/or go straight to the OK button.
In my case, I go, "yeah whatever, I'll do whatever I want to with my crap" (within reason of course, I'm not going to sell copies or anything).

Quite honestly though, Sony has completely alienated me from their Network. There are games on there that I WOULD BUY! But Sony doesn't seem to want money from people like me. Instead they forced me into accepting an ultimatum (update and lose homebrew or keep the system free and stop giving Sony business).
I made my choice and I'm cool with it (even if I am a bit ticked at the situation Sony put me in).

But I don't see a point to arguing about it. Things are the way they are, as are people. If no one (and I speak of consumer vs. corporation) can come to an understanding or compromise, we'll go our separate ways and that will be that.
The main problem I see is that companies refuse to negotiate fair terms (IMO) and even more, they refuse to evolve with the times.
I'm sorry, but if someone wants my patronage, they are going to have to give a little more freedom on what I can do with their product. Personally, I've already had a taste of how good it can be, and there's no going back for me now.

[DinnerX]

Am I the only one who kind of rolls my eyes every time I have to do a TOS agreement before enjoying the item or software that I bought?

Oh, you didn't buy the item or software. You bought a license to the item or software.

EULAs are used by companies to protect themselves and to grant themselves more control beyond what copyright would provide if they had actually sold the product. Copyright alone goes too far if you ask me, so EULAs are extra annoying.

[nightrnr]

Oh, you didn't buy the item or software. You bought a license to the item or software.

Yeah, yeah. I know the whole deal there (a bad one if you ask me).
But does anyone really take that seriously? I don't (sounds like you don't either). It's a technicality that has no real impact in my world.

To Them I say, "Shut up and take my money. But forgive me if I take certain liberties with that so-called "license" ". What I do with it is my business, not theirs.
And I doubt I'm even worth taking notice of anyways. Even if I am just fooling myself, I'll enjoy what I have the way I like it and nobody will ever care.

It's pretty simple really. We both say and believe what we need to and life goes on. Very likely we're fools on both ends.

[MrPopo]

Copyright alone goes too far if you ask me

Yes, how dare people try to maintain some ownership over the things they produce.

To Them I say, "Shut up and take my money. But forgive me if I take certain liberties with that so-called "license" ". What I do with it is my business, not theirs.

Except you entered into a contract with them that says it is their business.

[nightrnr]

Except you entered into a contract with them that says it is their business.

And how the heck are they going to enforce said contract, huh?

I already said I don't take it seriously. And I wouldn't take a contract signed by a gamer seriously anyways. The term "Mature Gamer" is the biggest oxymoron I've ever heard (I'll just speak for myself if that offended anyone, but that's my sentiment).

I don't know, maybe I'm a bad person. But I really just don't feel like it matters all that much at all.
Sony already doesn't think I matter, why should I feel different?

I think Sony and I need to go to counseling or something, if we're going to get back together.

[MrPopo]

Except you entered into a contract with them that says it is their business.

And how the heck are they going to enforce said contract, huh?

Well today they enforce it by requiring updated firmware for the latest games and keeping you off the PSN if you don't upgrade. Everyone who bitches about not being able to access those features without upgrading gets no sympathy from me, as those are the terms of the contract you agreed to.

I already said I don't take it seriously. And I wouldn't take a contract signed by a gamer seriously anyways. The term "Mature Gamer" is the biggest oxymoron I've ever heard (I'll just speak for myself if that offended anyone, but that's my sentiment).

Way to generalize. Plus, it doesn't matter how emotionally mature you might be when it comes to contract law, unless you can prove mental incompetence.