The Wrestling Thread

[BurningDoom]

Just thought of something today. If vince mcmahon never bought out or did buy out and kept teritories like they did in the 70's and 80's n.w.a, a.w.a, wccw, wwe/f, stampede wrestling, would wrestling be better off than just tna and wwe now. Just a thought that's all

I think the acquisition of the territories was a good thing. Territories were a thing of the past clinging onto old ideas that just didn't work anymore. They also had stars that NEEDED to be put in the national spotlight because territorial work just wasn't doing them justice.

However I do think that the acquisition of AWA and WCW hurt the industry. AWA was WWF's biggest competition in the 80s and WCW was it's biggest competition in the 90s. Both had national TV coverage and had large audiences, so they made the WWF be competitive. Without that competition, the WWE has gotten self-assured, cocky, and lazy; and the product has suffered as a result.

Things would be worse without the acquisition of the territories, but at the same time better if AWA and WCW was never acquired.

[BurningDoom]

WWE.com has published an article pleading for WWE to abandon the present "Spinner Title" design and return to the pride and tradition radiated by past WWE Titles. The article lists the prestigious replacements from which to pick and offers opinions from John Cena, The Miz and current strap holder CM Punk. "The Voice of the Voiceless" is very much in favor of change.

"YES! [The current title] is old and passé," said Punk. "It's gaudy and ugly. It says 'Champ' instead of Champion! That's ridiculous. I need a dignified title, not a blinged out rapper accessory."

Damn straight, they're right. And I so hope that ridiculous spinner-belt gets retired and replaced. Now if they can get those Tag-Team Titles looking nice again, right now they remind me of a Rolos wrapper.

[Xeogred]

Amen. Worst belt design ever.

And yeah, certainly if the AWA / WCW or some other company were around giving the WWE more competition, it'd spawn more creativity and risk which can certainly be a good thing in many cases. I think someone put it best earlier, the WWE should be thankful TNA sucks as much as it does, so they don't even need to bother competing against them. And well I don't care for TNA at all either myself, but if the WCW were still around (and TNA never existed) and had bigger crowds/viewers, maybe things would still be pretty interesting.

[BurningDoom]

Amen. Worst belt design ever.

And yeah, certainly if the AWA / WCW or some other company were around giving the WWE more competition, it'd spawn more creativity and risk which can certainly be a good thing in many cases. I think someone put it best earlier, the WWE should be thankful TNA sucks as much as it does, so they don't even need to bother competing against them. And well I don't care for TNA at all either myself, but if the WCW were still around (and TNA never existed) and had bigger crowds/viewers, maybe things would still be pretty interesting.

TNA 2006-2009 was AWESOME. It just didn't have the kind of advertising and brand-recognition WWE had. But then 2010-2011 after Bischoff and Hogan showed up, things started rolling downhill fast; but at the same time they were getting more attention than they ever had (talk about bad timing). It's still not as good as 2006-2009 era TNA, but things are at least getting better than they were when all we saw was Immortal dominating anyone and everyone.

And I am glad that loud, mouth-breathing, sweaty mess that was Don West is off of the announcing team. That was the one really bad thing about 2006-2009 TNA.

[Gamerforlife]

But dude, the thing is Cena looks like he's going to cry when he gets boo'd a lot. Or he'll try to pull out some stupid new moves like he's out to prove something if "You can't wrestle chants" pop up. And now if he fully turns heel, do we have to deal with him looking at the camera every time he walks out with that goofy ass smirk and him say "They love me!"... yikes.

I just want the guy out of here. I know it's asking for the impossible, but face or heel he is garbage.

My friend showed me this Piper interview earlier:


Love what he says at the end. He is definitely fair and seems to still have respect and love for the company and wants nothing but the new guys to succeed, but ... "Today wrestlers go in and wrestler with their mind. Not their heart." Too true in many regards with people like Cena.

Well, you know the thing is, and I think both this interview and the Piper's Pit on Raw were kind of touching on this, you have to CARE about what your audience wants. That's giving them your heart. Cena doesn't care about the WWE fans. When so many people boo you on a regular basis, and you're the company's top face, it means you're doing something wrong. It means you need to change, but Cena refuses to ever change. He does what he wants and fuck anyone who doesn't like it. That's not how the business works. The audience dictates what you do. You HAVE TO CARE ABOUT HOW THEY REACT TO YOU!!! If you're getting booed, it means you either change your babyface routine or you go heel. You don't just grin and basically say, "Aw fuck em, I'm John Cena and I'm above the fans and above the business"

People can't get behind Cena because you never get the feeling that he really gives a shit about what fans think of him. When only a certain percentage of the audience cheers for you, you don't accept that and go home happy. You're the number 1 babyface in the company, it's your fucking job to win over EVERYONE!!! I think it was Jericho, or some other wrestler who said something along the lines of, "I'm a heel. My job is to make EVERYONE in the arena hate me. If I can do that, I've earned my pay" Bully Ray once incited a riot early in his career. that's a good heel. On the flip side....

If you're a face, especially when you're the top face in the company, it's your job to make EVERYONE cheer for you. Cena doesn't do that, and he doesn't even try. He just ignores the people booing him and is content to always be a second rate babyface that can't win over an entire crowd. At the end of the day, Cena is a guy who is half-assing his job. He's a slacker, and yet he gets everything handed to him. It actually pisses me off that the WWE kisses his ass so much when he doesn't deserve it. That's right, I said it. HE DOESN'T DESERVE IT!!!! Cena is a slacker who just phones it in week in and week out and the people booing him can see that.

I'll quote something the Rock said in one of his promos. "The Rock is a man Cena, and real men can spot bullshit"

[Xeogred]

Well I agree with everything you said there, hard to tell if you're arguing or agreeing with my point though heh. Cena is Cena and he's never going to change, he can't evolve unlike other guys like Triple H, Jericho, Rock, etc, and his speech with Piper pretty much completely summed that up publicly. Maybe he thought it sounded good (to himself personally even), that "he is who he is and he's not changing", whelp buddy Cena, you can't always be a one way ticket. The masses are bored of you, so either change or pack your bags.

So basically I was just kind of disagreeing with your point earlier about saying "If Cena went heel I'd maybe like him", but for me personally, I just want him completely out of the picture. I can't believe this transparent lame guy with fruit loop shirts has been the face of the company for a decade practically.

Miz is awesome by the way, AWESOME. I might like him more than Punk myself, he's got that awesome heel edge and one of my friends said he's good friends with Jericho, and grew up idolized the Rock. So no wonder the guy has those influences in his promos and everything.

[BurningDoom]

Did anyone see Robert Roode vs. Jeff Hardy vs. A.J. Styles in the main-event this last week on Impact? That was a freaking awesome main-event match! PPV quality. If you didn't see it, you missed out.

[Gamerforlife]

Well I agree with everything you said there, hard to tell if you're arguing or agreeing with my point though heh. Cena is Cena and he's never going to change, he can't evolve unlike other guys like Triple H, Jericho, Rock, etc, and his speech with Piper pretty much completely summed that up publicly. Maybe he thought it sounded good (to himself personally even), that "he is who he is and he's not changing", whelp buddy Cena, you can't always be a one way ticket. The masses are bored of you, so either change or pack your bags.

So basically I was just kind of disagreeing with your point earlier about saying "If Cena went heel I'd maybe like him", but for me personally, I just want him completely out of the picture. I can't believe this transparent lame guy with fruit loop shirts has been the face of the company for a decade practically.

Miz is awesome by the way, AWESOME. I might like him more than Punk myself, he's got that awesome heel edge and one of my friends said he's good friends with Jericho, and grew up idolized the Rock. So no wonder the guy has those influences in his promos and everything.

Okay, I get what you're saying. I wouldn't mind Cena out of the picture myself, but I don't see that happening. He's in too good with Vince and some of the other guys like Randy Orton. Wrestling is all politics after all. Whether we like it or not, Cena is likely a future hall of famer

Yeah, I've been high on Miz for a while. He's gonna be a top guy. I think him, Ziggler, Punk and maybe R Truth could carry the company in the coming years. R Truth has a lot of potential as a babyface if he can evolve his character. His crazy guy gimmick can really go over like crazy old Mick Foley used to be over. Daniel Bryan has great potential. I think he can become really good on the mic and he's already got the in ring goods. I could see him becoming better than Benoit ever was. If I was forced to make comparisons with some of these guys and their predecessors, Miz could be the next Rock(he already refers to himself as "the Miz"), Ziggler could be the next Mr Perfect and Punk the next Austin.

I kind of feel like we are lacking a really, awesome heel right now though. Nothing against Henry, who I am enjoying a lot right now, but I mean a badass, dominating, intimidating heel the likes of what Triple H used to be. It's one thing to have a great babyface to build your company around, you need an amazing heel too. As great as Henry has been lately, he's not that guy, Del Rio is no where even close to being that guy, and Kevin Nash is boring and over the hill. Miz is great, but still not on that level. I don't know where they can find the kind of heel I have in mind, or even if we can have a truly diabolical heel in this kid friendly era. It's a shame the Nexus thing with Barrett got screwed up by WWE creative. That's what I'm talking about. When the Nexus thing was going strong, it felt like we were in Wade Barrett's world and he could do whatever the hell he wanted. Even Vince McMahon couldn't stop them. I think Randy still had a lot of potential left in him as a heel. I realize he was getting cheered, but they turned him too soon. They should have found a way to make people really hate him again. I'd kind of like to see Jericho come back and get the biggest heel push of his entire career. I could easily see him becoming the most hated man in wrestling with more heat than Michael Cole and Vickie Guerarro combined if they really gave him the ball and said, "Here you go Jericho, you are now the most evil and dangerous man in the entire WWE. Take the ball and run with it the way guys like Ric Flair and Triple H did years ago"

I've heard about Jericho and Miz being friends before. I wonder if Jericho always accusing Miz of stealing his gimmick is some kind of in joke between those two or maybe Jericho is setting up a future feud. It seems hard to know when Jericho is or isn't in character when he does interviews, even though he's been out of the WWE for some time now

[Xeogred]

If I was forced to make comparisons with some of these guys and their predecessors, Miz could be the next Rock(he already refers to himself as "the Miz"), Ziggler could be the next Mr Perfect and Punk the next Austin.

Dead on, heh.

Funny thing is since I've only been back into it for half the year or something, I haven't seen much of Miz's solo stuff. My other wrestling friends say they weren't digging the Awesome R-Truth combo because they like the two a lot more on their own, and I guess I can kind of see that. Plus they weren't even doing real tag team stuff, just kind of a team tearing stuff up ... but yeah now I look forward to them being on their own. I like both a lot like you do myself. I've been very impressed with Ziggler as well, if he would ditch Vickie that would be great (she could just stick with that other guy or something).

Jericho coming back to feud with Punk perhaps... that one probably be one hell of a ride. I think I heard they're wanting to setup for some Miz vs Punk stuff though which could be awesome. Both guys have attitude, so that's gonna be great.

As much as I was hating Triple H throughout the year with how horribly he and the staff handled his new boss character, I totally agree with what you're saying about some diabolical heel though and Triple H did a damn good job at that. Definitely one of the best heel runs ever. Coming out with the sledgehammer all the time and just destroying people. He was evil and pissed. I think Miz has potential but yeah I don't know if he'd have that "evil" intimidation factor. Perhaps

Randy could do it though. I'm not sure what to say about him currently, but one of my friends that's really big on him said I kind of missed out on his really good 2009-2010 run and he thinks he's been held back as well a little outside of the Henry feud.

[Gamerforlife]

If I was forced to make comparisons with some of these guys and their predecessors, Miz could be the next Rock(he already refers to himself as "the Miz"), Ziggler could be the next Mr Perfect and Punk the next Austin.

Dead on, heh.

Funny thing is since I've only been back into it for half the year or something, I haven't seen much of Miz's solo stuff. My other wrestling friends say they weren't digging the Awesome R-Truth combo because they like the two a lot more on their own, and I guess I can kind of see that. Plus they weren't even doing real tag team stuff, just kind of a team tearing stuff up ... but yeah now I look forward to them being on their own. I like both a lot like you do myself. I've been very impressed with Ziggler as well, if he would ditch Vickie that would be great (she could just stick with that other guy or something).

Jericho coming back to feud with Punk perhaps... that one probably be one hell of a ride. I think I heard they're wanting to setup for some Miz vs Punk stuff though which could be awesome. Both guys have attitude, so that's gonna be great.

As much as I was hating Triple H throughout the year with how horribly he and the staff handled his new boss character, I totally agree with what you're saying about some diabolical heel though and Triple H did a damn good job at that. Definitely one of the best heel runs ever. Coming out with the sledgehammer all the time and just destroying people. He was evil and pissed. I think Miz has potential but yeah I don't know if he'd have that "evil" intimidation factor. Perhaps

Randy could do it though. I'm not sure what to say about him currently, but one of my friends that's really big on him said I kind of missed out on his really good 2009-2010 run and he thinks he's been held back as well a little outside of the Henry feud.

My favorite part of Randy's career so far, was when he feuded as a heel with Triple H, which may or may not be what your friends are referring to. First of all, WWE actually made proper use of continuity. Randy basically said he had been plotting revenge on Triple H for years since Triple H turned on Orton back when he was a part of Triple H's Evolution faction. Randy would then go on to systematically destroy Triple H's entire family. I think he hit Steph with an RKO, took out Vince McMahon and I think he even laid out Shane. At one point, Hunter actually went to Orton's house and attacked him and threw him out of a window. THAT'S how you do a feud properly. Orton was never more evil than he was during this feud, and the best part was, in a sick sort of way he was justified in wanting revenge against Hunter. However, like a good heel should, he took it way too far

What I loved about this feud, is that Hunter had groomed Orton to be a major heel when Hunter was running Evolution. Essentially, Hunter created a monster that would come back to haunt him a few years later after Hunter turned face. It's kind of like the student came back and destroyed the master. Good stuff

On another note, I played WWE'12 today and I pretty much hate it so far. The AI counters ninety percent of what you throw at it and is extremely aggressive on just the default, normal difficulty. Combine this with the fact that the game does not have a proper tutorial mode and you're pretty much just getting your ass handed to you in the ring. You HAVE to learn how to counter to stop the computer when it goes on the offensive. Unfortunately, since you can't predict what the computer is going to do and the window of timing for counters is so small, it becomes a game of luck. It's been a good couple yeare since I have played a Yukes wrestling game and this exact same thing used to piss me off back then too. Nice to see that NOTHING has changed over the years. In fact, some of the models for the wrestlers look just as awkward now as they did on the PS 1 and yet they are making such a big deal about this being the first game made for current gen consoles and throwing out all this BS about their amazing "Predator" engine.

This is the same sort of Yukes wrestling game that I was playing years ago. Same old, same old. Other things that pissed me off. The computer often kicks out of my finishers. Um, there's a reason they are called FINISHERS damnit! I hit a Celtic Cross on Cody Rhodes and he immediately just kipped up off the mat like Sean Michaels. What the fuck!? I'm not exactly sure what I'm supposed to do to win matches. Getting a 3 count seems based on luck, and none of my moves ever seems to really weaken my opponent. What really sucks is the onscreen HUD shows you almost nothing. No health bar or stamina bar to give you a sense of how much you're hurting your opponent, and I can't even tell when I'm close to having my finishers available, not that they're worth a damn anyway. God, the gameplay is pure garbage.

The only great things about the game are the story and presentation. The story mode is actually amazing with good booking and lots of voiced dialog and promos from the actual wrestlers. Unfortunately, much like the real world WWE, the game seems more concerned about the cutscenes and story than the actual wrestling a.k.a the actual gameplay