Obama Asserts US Pacific Power Fear of Rising China

[o.pwuaioc]

Okay. Apparently we don't even need money. God bless America!

God has nothing to do with economics.

Murderous dictators are not our business.

They are ever since the United Nations came into existence.

We are not the world's police.

No, but we are part of a world that polices itself.

We cannot afford to be the world's police.

But we can still play our part.

Our government is corrupt and manipulative.

Every single person in the government? Of course not.

We only help when it suits us.

How did Libya "suit us"?

We bribe leaders to get what we want.

So what?

We do not make good police.

Thankfully, the concept of "police" as applied to international diplomacy is infantile and unrelated to reality, so it doesn't matter if we make good police or not.

Welcome to the 21st century, btw.

Many dictators we support until convenient or have put into power ourselves. Our dicking with the Iranian government in the 1950's is a major reason for the anti-American sentiment over there.

Riiiiight, nothing at all to do with the general rising Islamism that took place in the 70s and swept in a revolution in the late 70s.

We create terrorists through our foreign policy.

You're only half correct.

Our government would have us believe they hate us for our ideals of "freedom and liberty" .

They're only half correct.

Pretty sure secret off-shore prisons where we break US law and international law with illegal, immoral, and undignified acts of torture don't help. Always thought secret prisons were more of a characteristic of corrupt, totalitarian governments myself.

Been reading a bit too much 1984, have we? And if they're so secret, how come you know so much about them? Kind of defeats your argument there, huh?

If you want to convince anyone, you might want to use a bit less rhetoric and a bit more facts.

[Croooow!]

We're not going to be safe if foreign investors decide the dollar is unstable and pull out. Without value behind our dollar we cannot defend ourselves.

Why would troop stationing cause foreign investors to abandon US Treasury Securities? The reason why China and Japan (their shares are almost equal, no one ever brings this up) buy US Debt is because the currency has the best chance of long term stability. Another good alternative does not exist now that the Euro's reputation has taken a severe beating.

[equalsign]

Haha! Well. As soon as it's been broken down into that many quote boxes the conversation is over. I don't see you using any facts either. Just "Nope, wrong." Well, I think you're absolutely wrong. It's an argument over the internet. I'm not going to waste my time with citations. You probably don't want to either.

I can use rhetoric if it suits me. I could hand you all the facts and you'd think the US would still be in the right. Well, I think my country has been a shameful mess at least as long as I've been alive. I don't think I'm "unAmerican." I think the country has lost its way. Obviously, neither of us is convincing the other. Agree to disagree and give it 20 years?

[Bikeage]

Industrialized perpetual warfare is going to fuel the global economy from here on out and there is nothing you can do about it. Some will talk a good game for peace, love, and happiness, but if you consume goods at any commercial level, use currency, pay taxes you are just as culpable in dropping bombs as the soldier pressing the button.

Know who the real 1% are? The very few out there who live completely off the grid, and whose lives are not dependent what so ever upon modern industrialized society. They are about the only one's who can be let off the hook. I don't care what your views or politics are, 99.999999% of everyone reading this is an economic terrorist on some level, because someone, somewhere, was exploited by your purchasing power.

Now go out there and buy something, your country needs you.

[mjmjr25]

^I'm gonna buy you a soapbox.

[dsheinem]

so much apathy and ignorance in this thread too bad, we used to have productive political debates around here.

[o.pwuaioc]

Haha! Well. As soon as it's been broken down into that many quote boxes the conversation is over. I don't see you using any facts either. Just "Nope, wrong." Well, I think you're absolutely wrong. It's an argument over the internet. I'm not going to waste my time with citations. You probably don't want to either.

Well, you made the assertions. Until you back up your facts, you're just another nobody shouting nothing at no one.

I can use rhetoric if it suits me. I could hand you all the facts and you'd think the US would still be in the right. Well, I think my country has been a shameful mess at least as long as I've been alive. I don't think I'm "unAmerican." I think the country has lost its way. Obviously, neither of us is convincing the other. Agree to disagree and give it 20 years?

I think the US would still be in the right with regards to what? And if you don't want to talk about facts, then really there is nothing left to do but just "agree to disagree", but on this topic, we certainly can.

[equalsign]

It's approach to foreign policy.

You made assertions as well. If you want to look up the US involvement in Iran in the 1950's you are welcome to. If you want to look up civilian casualties with drone statistics you're welcome to. I really just don't have the kind of time to collect it and post it here, especially since I don't think you would be convinced either way. This thread really isn't going anywhere, so I think I'll just leave.

[johnblade]

Hmm...the US can assets as much pressure on China and show the big ego of who is the boss in that area as much as they want. In reality, the odd of both country fighting is going to be very low. They isn't really any major reason for them to go against each other......for now.

For the US, they just want a buffer as a way to slow down the growth of China power around the Pacific. Unfortunately, this buffer won't stop China growth but it will make the high official in China (and also the military) to watch very carefully of what the US will be doing in the next decade or so (this might mean having a plans of what to do if US do try to attacking them in that area).

As of American allies, you might want to double check that. In the case of a war against China, most of those allies will just stay neutral. This is mostly save them the trouble of getting themselves in a pickle if US can't push into China (which in reality they won't able to either by Air or Ground). You don't want to piss off the country next door by supporting your allies at war even thought they won't save you if they retreat. This doesn't mean China won't attack them if they didn't join in the battle with the US.

Now the fun part.

Now, let's just say the shit hit the fan and US or China declare war against each other (doesn't matter who declare it), how can US beat China? The only way to win this fight now is to attack the economy in China. As you know, economy is the strongest layer of defense. That will be the first thing that will come under attack as battle in mainland or airspace in China is going to be difficult to impossible.

So, how US can attack China's economy? Well, you going to need allies who will support you in this attack from the beginning. This allies will most likely going to come from the EU and Japan. The other allies who is Pro US will either stay neutral as they don't want to get attack or might stay neutral but might give you one of they military port as a location where the US military can station.

So, what US and his allies can do to attack China's economy? Well, you can try the good old method of blockade (for this issue, a naval blockade) which will stretch from South Korea thru Japan, Philipines on to Vietnam. That's sound fine and can work but they is some issue with this.

1. Is it possible for the combined forces to enforce a naval blockade of China?

2. Is it feasible for them to sustain that blockade for a reasonable period of time? - both economically and militarily

If this naval blockade come into effect, it will cause an immediate impact under the raw material producers. A good example is the iron ore producers in Brazil who can't sell their iron ore to China. This mean a major losses and bad for the economy. You can say Brazil can shift this demand to other countries who need some iron ore which is true. The problem with this is they isn't a country who need a huge amount of iron ore demand right now like China and even if they can shift it, they will still going to be huge losses for Brazil.

Another impact from this naval blockade is the world wide crude oil prices will fall as you can't export oil to China (I have a feeling this might be good for us here in North America as we might get cheap oil).

Well, what kind of impact that we will feel from this naval blockade? Well, textiles, shoes, electronics, (anything that have "Made in China" logo on) will need to be manufactured in other countries than China. This mean US, Canada, Europe, Japan, or they will need to be imported from other developing countries. This sound good for us as jobs are now coming back to our country. Well.....they is a catch. Because we lost the major manufacturing countries from this naval blockade, the capacity of building the product we use will take times. From this, there would be an increased in prices for assembles products.

Now that we talk about what impact it will have to us, let's talk about how it will impact China.

So, how will China react in this situation?
Well, they can use the oil reserves they have inside China. This can keep the country going for a while if they get every people in China not to waste power in this crisis. They can also try to import from Russia (if they don't side with the US).

How about China military response?

Well, China could possibly attack the US join allies naval fleet, some 800 - 2000 km from it's coast. Also, the air battle will take place mostly over surrounding seas if any of the US join allies get close to China. They can choose not to attack, and re-adjust it's economy internally... hoping that the naval blockade will wear down with time.

Ok, let's just say the naval blockade did work. What impact will come from this?

Well, since a huge labor force in China would be idling with most exports stopped. This mean they will be a limited amount or raw materials or semi-finished parts to feed the assembly lines around China. This can turn into a major unrest and risk an internal implosion or even worst......revolution. This will be great!!! The Chinese people will rise against their government and the communist (or socialist in this modern time ) system which China use will fall and the democracy will rise once more in China and all the people will be happy in China will be happy and the West will feel proud once more.

OR

On the other hand, they will be protest marches in US, Europe, Canada, and any other democratic countries to open the blockade accompanied by cries to prevent a hot war.

You need to remember that this naval blockade could only happened if China did something serious against the wishes of most of the world like attack Taiwan. In reality, China won't do this unless they're willing to risk the economic growth they're having right now.



So in conclusion, neither side will have any major advantage if they is a war between US and China. If you want to know more of what might happened if US did launch a massive attack against China, I can discuss a bit more about that if you people want to know.

[mjmjr25]

I can discuss a bit more about that if you people want to know.

I think were good.