Isn't leveling just useless?

[Zing]

Keep in mind that the JRPG formula was based on the designs of American RPG games such as Wizardry, which in turn were based on the pen-and-paper Dungeons & Dragons game.

[o.pwuaioc]

I know Alex is supposed to increase in strength on the journey and levels are the best way to show that quantitatively but it is starting to seem silly that monsters get more powerful on the same linear path his journey goes on. The same also applies to weapons and when I reach a new town I could expect an NPC to say, "Hi, welcome to [insert town] where the weapons and the monsters are stronger than the were in [previous town] but not as strong as they are in [next town]."

This is why I'm such a big fan of Ogre Battle 64. They knew that leveling occurs, but the entire plot is written around making that seem plausible. That is, the enemies you fight aren't just stronger statistically, they're all supposed to be stronger. In the game, you start off with a fledgling army and keep fighting more and more experienced and stronger armies. Leveling made sense (and there was no grinding involved!).

[RyaNtheSlayA]

Why level up to get more stats when the enemy stats also rise? Why bother to learn Pyro++ to harm the improved enemies as much as you did when you fought the sprite-swapped rats with Pyro+? What good are levels in most games anyways?

When the game has adaptive difficulty like Oblivion, then I agree. It's completely pointless. Luckily, I don't think that's much of a common practice.

I can't say I'm a fan of the Morrowind way though. Where you can just randomly stumble uppon an extremely high level character and get killed in one or two hits. Then once you level up enough you can kill anything like you were killed early on in the game.

As Zing said, leveling should be for progression and complexity of the game, not for making the game easier. Easing the gamer in and making them feel comfortable while gradually giving them new game elements as they become more experienced.

[Croooow!]

I can't say I'm a fan of the Morrowind way though. Where you can just randomly stumble uppon an extremely high level character and get killed in one or two hits. Then once you level up enough you can kill anything like you were killed early on in the game.

Stumbling across enemies that were relatively extremely powerful was part of the fun in FFXII. The sudden and unexpected danger those instances provided was a nice source of tension that I miss in other RPGs where the enemies and bosses all provide manageable challenges.

[Xeogred]

Cue the incoming slant against JRPG's that I've been seeing around here a lot lately. *shrugs*

Ahh... Final Fantasy VIII. Where do I begin?




...

*checks your backlog*

Guess you still haven't finished it?

[J T]

I always liked those moments when I was completely leveled up and I went back to my home town just to beat the living crap out of every rat and blue slime that ever wronged me.

[dunpeal2064]

I can't imagine how bored I'd be if my characters staeted out the way they were going to be at the end of the game. I'd probably lose interest.

The thing is, the enemies will keep getting stronger, regardless of whether you level or not, so leveling is kinda required. (aside ffviii, which scales enemies)

They are usually long games, so dynamic characters, both story wise and playability, are a must in my book.

[xan_racketBOY_fan]

I completely agree with OP. I had this talk with friends back in my high days, especially concerning FFVIII. The rubber band difficulty made grinding useless because enemies and bosses always "one-upped" you. I set out and beat that game without spending unnecessary time leveling up.

Not all RPGs are like that, though. Dragon Quest VIII required you spend the time beefing your stats up. I found myself losing plenty in the beginning. When I a found sweet spot to get my level up, I made progress in the areas giving me a hard time. I spent a lot time grinding before setting out further in the story and it proved well worth it later in the game.

[Erik_Twice]

If I understand you correctly, your complaint is that your character gaining power is pointless Why not just keep the same variety of monsters, but maintain the player and the enemies at the same strength level throughout the game?

Yesssss but with a nitpick. I'm fine (or even think it's good) to vary the relative strenght level. What I oppose is making everything stronger but keeping the same relative levels.

1) It is a method of keeping the early game simple, with fewer decisions, while introducing complexity later.

I thought of this too but, in the end, I don't think levelling is necessary to add complexity.

In fact, I think it's a pretty poor method as it requires complex mathematical formulas and redundant items. That makes the games harder to grasp and consumes precious development time for little game.

2) It is thematic that characters should become better at certain skills due to use.
3) It is just fun to start out as a weakling and watch your character grow

I think the problem I have is that you don't really grow and the character doesn't really get better. You still perform the same actions with the same payoff, only the numbers change.

It's telling, not showing. Yes, it may be a "Dark General" now instead of a Slime but if you play against it the same way then there's no real difference, it's a façade. It's like one of those movies where you are told the main characters love each other but they never show you why.

I think the best way to make a character "grow" is to give him more options not more numbers.


That said, great post Zing.

[Hatta]

This is one of those things that made the SMT games so amazing. You were essentially forced into mixing up your stable of demons as you leveled up. Demons leveled up, but not as fast as you did. So if you tried to hang onto one good demon, he'd be useless before long. So even though the spells were the same, with bigger numbers, you had a different array of spells depending on the demons you happened to catch/fuse.

So you have a good point. Levels exist for a reason, but if that's the only mechanic the game isn't going to be very compelling. You have to mix it up a bit, force people to make choices, that keeps it interesting.