Isn't leveling just useless?

[Erik_Twice]

Why level up to get more stats when the enemy stats also rise? Why bother to learn Pyro++ to harm the improved enemies as much as you did when you fought the sprite-swapped rats with Pyro+? What good are levels in most games anyways?

Because I fail to see the point. There's absolutedly no reason for levelling in say, Golden Sun or Final Fantasy other than a shallow sense of progress.

In the end, I'm starting to think that RPGs in the videogame sense are inherently flawed. Instead of making combat more interesting over time you get the same level of complexity but bigger, which is boring.

Thoughts?

[Xeogred]

Thoughts?

Um, how many FF's have you played?

Only FFII (NES) and FFVIII have enemies that level up with you off the top of my head. Not a lot of JRPG's do this either honestly, so ... that kind of negates your point here.

[Erik_Twice]

Um, how many FF's have you played?

Only FFII (NES) and FFVIII have enemies that level up with you off the top of my head.

I have played too many of them

I'm not talking about the enemies' strenght being tied to yours, I'm talking about starting at level 1 and ending the game at level 80 being useless because the enemies get proportionatedly stronger as you progress.

However, thanks to the designer putting stronger enemies at the rate you get stronger there's not much difference between tied leveling and not other than being able to grind in the former. Both are bad because the levels don't add anything to the game other than bigger numbers.

Say, if this were a Dota game, leveling would add something to the game but here it doesn't. Leveling up doesn't add anything to Final Fantasy.

[AppleQueso]

leveling exists so people can do low-level runs

[o.pwuaioc]

Leveling sure does - Firaga is way cooler looking than Fire.

[Xeogred]

Ahh, I guess I see your point then. It is something weird to think about from time to time, but oh well... nothing that bothers me.

Cue the incoming slant against JRPG's that I've been seeing around here a lot lately. *shrugs*

[Opa Opa]

Cue the incoming slant against JRPG's that I've been seeing around here a lot lately. *shrugs*

Ahh... Final Fantasy VIII. Where do I begin?




...

[Zing]

If I understand you correctly, your complaint is that your character gaining power is pointless, since, in most games, the enemies increase in an equivalent amount of power as you progress. Why not just keep the same variety of monsters, but maintain the player and the enemies at the same strength level throughout the game?

I can think of three primary arguments for "levelling".

1) It is a method of keeping the early game simple, with fewer decisions, while introducing complexity later. Most games introduce new abilities or special attacks as you progress. Meanwhile, the enemies also increase in their complexity and capabilities. This keeps the game interesting for a much longer time.

2) It is thematic that characters should become better at certain skills due to use. However, I agree that levelling as implemented in most games is too abstract. Skill-based improvements are more thematic, but they add complexity to a genre of game that is already considered impenetrable to many people.

3) It is just fun to start out as a weakling and watch your character grow. Games are a leisurely activity and inherently designed to pass time in an entertaining fashion. I can see how some games with levelling might feel more like work than entertainment, but this is a specific game design flaw and not due to levelling itself.

[Hatta]

Well said Zing.

[Croooow!]

I've been focusing on this as well as I've started playing Lunar: Silver Star Harmony and Baldur's Gate: Dark Alliance. In LSSH I'm around level 20 but it takes the same number of turns to kill a group of monsters as it did when I was level 1. I feel like grinding is becoming redundant and there hasn't been enough new to keep my interest in the gameplay. I know Alex is supposed to increase in strength on the journey and levels are the best way to show that quantitatively but it is starting to seem silly that monsters get more powerful on the same linear path his journey goes on. The same also applies to weapons and when I reach a new town I could expect an NPC to say, "Hi, welcome to [insert town] where the weapons and the monsters are stronger than the were in [previous town] but not as strong as they are in [next town]."

With BG:DA, on the other hand, I can definitely see my character and the weapons increase in strength faster than the enemies do and it's making things a lot more fun. I like how it handled explaining why weapons in Baldur's Gate are weaker than the Sunset Mountains because the city has to import them from the faraway mountainous manufacturing center. I also like how several classes of weapons are available in each shop and how there are only three shops/towns. Being able to afford an incredible weapon before the enemies have a chance to catch up makes the game very satisfying.