Why do we still play retro games?

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flamepanther
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Re: Why do we still play retro games?

Post by flamepanther »

isiolia wrote:I would still point out the simple fact that the industry in general was pushing that direction at the time. For Sony to say that they wanted games to be more like movies would simply tie straight in with marketing at the time. The "interactive narrative" thing was popular (such as it was) before the PSX.
I think that's too large a generalization. That current within the games industry existed, but almost entirely outside of Nintendo's platforms. With the exception of the Sega CD, it was also outside of Sega's arena.
If anything, the PSX returned more to gameplay compared to the multimedia "experience" of things like the 3DO or CDi. Air/Ace Combat, Twisted Metal, Warhawk, Wipeout, Tomb Raider, their port of DOOM, etc. FMV cutscenes? Often. But basically anything on any disc-based system had them at the time, and PC games had for years prior.
But compared to the Saturn or the N64? Compared to the SNES? Not so much. Not even close, I'd say. Again, interactive movies were a failed experiment that console gamers rejected almost completely--hence the hopeless demise of the 3DO, CD-i, and the Sega CD. That Sony would continue even partially in that direction speaks volumes.

I'd also like to point out one more time that my postion has little or nothing to do with FMV istelf, nor cut scenes in general. It's about espousing the position that games should be interactive cinema, and about creating a false need for games to somehow "grow up".

I think anyone can recognize that EA and Activision are the two biggest problem publishers in the areas that most of us now complain about. I can see them taking a foothold on PC gaming with or without Sony's dominance of the gaming industry. I can imagine them having a similar-but-diminished role in a Sega-dominated timeline. I cannot even begin to imagine them being a dominant player in a Nintendo-controlled industry. EA and Activision titles are huge with Sony's audience. Not so with Nintendo's, even though they are still present.
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isiolia
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Re: Why do we still play retro games?

Post by isiolia »

But compared to the Saturn or the N64? Not so much. Not even close, I'd say.


The Saturn was likely the recipient of nearly any FMV-heavy game that the PSX got. The N64, obviously, was ill-equipped to handle it.

I'd also like to point out one more time that my postion has little or nothing to do with FMV istelf, nor cut scenes in general. It's about espousing the position that games should be interactive cinema, and about creating a false need for games to somehow "grow up".


Well, what titles are you specifically disgruntled over though?

Nothing I can think of offhand is a direct byproduct of Sony or the PSX, outside of the basic hardware capabilities.

The market shifted at that time because the demographic was changing. The NES generation was in high school/college, if not in the workforce. The average age for gamers has skewed older over time, but the PSX era around when developers could start banking on having that older audience to appeal to.
Again, something that had already started - ye olde Night Trap/Mortal Kombat/etc complaints, the start of the ratings systems. Trying to make more "mature" games was a notion that predated the PSX.

Games are like that for the same reason that every TV show and movie isn't a G or PG-rated Disney affair. Not that there's anything wrong with those...just that they aren't the only thing adults ever want to see, and adults are the ones with money.

Nintendo probably wouldn't have backed the kind of shifts we saw, but in some ways they contributed to them.
The NES/SNES days of the Nintendo Seal of Quality, like the Comics Code, kept things tame/censored. Pros and cons to it, of course, but the net result for Nintendo was control. The same reason that they generally use non-standard media.

Give developers, and in turn gamers, the ability to do stuff that Nintendo wouldn't let them, and a market segment is born. In that sense, Nintendo contributed to the rise of other platforms and the kind of content that they made a name on...and would never have prevented the rise of anything.
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flamepanther
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Re: Why do we still play retro games?

Post by flamepanther »

isiolia wrote:The Saturn was likely the recipient of nearly any FMV-heavy game that the PSX got. The N64, obviously, was ill-equipped to handle it.
Strike that. You're still shoehorning me into a position of hating FMV specifically. That's completely incorrect. What I'm taking issue with in terms of games-as-cinema is the emphasis on cinematography and narrative qualities, regardless of whether the gameplay is enjoyable on its own merits.
Well, what titles are you specifically disgruntled over though?
That's like asking which bean in the chilli made you fart. How often has there been a triple-A title this generation, outside of a Nintendo platform, that had some color, and that placed the value of the gameplay experience above that of graphics, realism, story, mood, or what have you? Little Big Planet, Child of Eden... and that's pretty much it. It's not any one game that's the problem. Most of them are relatively OK. It's the lack of anything else that's not like them that's a problem. Which one game represents the lack of something? That's not a rational question.
Nothing I can think of offhand is a direct byproduct of Sony or the PSX, outside of the basic hardware capabilities.
It might seem that way to you because Sony does not visibly make a lot of games. However, every console manufacturer has some influence--whether by policy, by example, or in most cases a combination of both. Here we have a lineage of platforms that from the beginning has proclaimed more than any other "we want games to be more like cinema" and has geared their hardware to that end, and has encouraged developers to trend toward realism and cinematography... a company that has through its marketing cultivated an audience that is specifically looking for this experience... Afterwards we have these trends going strong in Sony's library and almost not at all in Nintendo's (nor Sega's when they were viable)... and Sony somehow has nothing to do with it? :?
The market shifted at that time because the demographic was changing. The NES generation was in high school/college, if not in the workforce. The average age for gamers has skewed older over time, but the PSX era around when developers could start banking on having that older audience to appeal to.
Again, something that had already started - ye olde Night Trap/Mortal Kombat/etc complaints, the start of the ratings systems. Trying to make more "mature" games was a notion that predated the PSX.
Do not confuse blood and gore with maturity. That said, Nintendo's strict policy of censorship ended during the SNES era. Look back earlier too. Death Race? Morbid games have been around nearly from the beginning, so the suggestion that games need to grow up is a false one even in that narrow, immature reading of it--although I've never seen any other fanbase but Sony's get so hung up over content ratings.

No, the far worse suggestion is that games needed to grow up by becoming "more serious"--that the primary focus should be on realism, or on story, or on cinematic composition. There's not anything inherently wrong with attempting these things, but it's a misguided idea to suggest that this is what games are about, or that it necessarily should be.
Nintendo probably wouldn't have backed the kind of shifts we saw, but in some ways they contributed to them.
The NES/SNES days of the Nintendo Seal of Quality, like the Comics Code, kept things tame/censored. Pros and cons to it, of course, but the net result for Nintendo was control. The same reason that they generally use non-standard media.

Give developers, and in turn gamers, the ability to do stuff that Nintendo wouldn't let them, and a market segment is born. In that sense, Nintendo contributed to the rise of other platforms and the kind of content that they made a name on...and would never have prevented the rise of anything.
It's not the rise of anything that's the issue here--it's the sheer domination of it. Under Nintendo, these trends would exist, but with less emphasis and little encouragement. Under Sega, I think there would still be more emphasis on quality game content over story or gritty presentation, even if only by example.
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Re: Why do we still play retro games?

Post by PixelPixii »

I play for both nostalgic and enjoyment reasons. Like stated previously, some of the games are so simplistic that it is nice that I can just come home and fire it up without putting much thought into it.

Some days I just want a simple but addictive platformer. Other days I want an rpg with more depth. Modern games are sometimes to heavy/intense to keep my attention for long.

I feel like most modern games try too hard.
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isiolia
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Re: Why do we still play retro games?

Post by isiolia »

That's like asking which bean in the chilli made you fart. How often has there been a triple-A title this generation, outside of a Nintendo platform, that had some color, and that placed the value of the gameplay experience above that of graphics, realism, story, mood, or what have you? Little Big Planet, Child of Eden... and that's pretty much it. It's not any one game that's the problem. Most of them are relatively OK. It's the lack of anything else that's not like them that's a problem. Which one game represents the lack of something? That's not a rational question.


No, it's asking because games are largely subjective. I wouldn't classify Little Big Planet in that for gameplay reasons. An attempt at community generated content maybe, but not for the platforming. Child of Eden isn't really AAA - if you count that, then stuff like Portal, Torchlight, Super Meat Boy, Bastion, etc would count, to me.

I'd also say it's unfair to disqualify games just because they also succeed in those other areas. Demon's Souls is very moody, but it's also highly about play mechanics. Same with Starcraft II, or even arguably most online shooters. Plenty of AAA games have perfectly solid mechanics underneath.

I ask because most of the formative PSX games I can think of were, again, more of a return to actual gameplay compared to the FMV-laden "experiments" of early disc-based games.

It might seem that way to you because Sony does not visibly make a lot of games. However, every console manufacturer has some influence--whether by policy, by example, or in most cases a combination of both. Here we have a lineage of platforms that from the beginning has proclaimed more than any other "we want games to be more like cinema" and has geared their hardware to that end, and has encouraged developers to trend toward realism and cinematography... a company that has through its marketing cultivated an audience that is specifically looking for this experience... Afterwards we have these trends going strong in Sony's library and almost not at all in Nintendo's (nor Sega's when they were viable)... and Sony somehow has nothing to do with it?


Not nothing, just not at the root of it.

Sony looked at the trends in gaming and built a machine around supporting them because they wanted to attract developers, and that's what they did. Of that generation, the PSX was by far the easiest machine to code for, especially for increasingly more common 3D. It used a cheap and flexible disc format.

Meanwhile Sega was coming off of trying to push the Genesis/32X/CD, and presented developers with the convoluted hardware of the Saturn to try and figure out. It wasn't as though Sega had all the major names anyway.
Or you had the N64, which presented yet another system that was hard to work with, and combined it with costly, limiting cartridges.

The long and short is that Sony did their homework and presented developers with a machine that was a lot more inviting to make almost any kind of console game for. Not entirely surprising that so many did. For Japan, some would say that the gain of Square (particularly) was what secured things for Sony.

Nintendo has never been able to get the developer support back that it had with the SNES. First due to perception with the GC, then due to not having similar enough hardware with the Wii. Sega had problems with developer support too. MS as well to a point (without a wad of cash in hand at least).
Ironically, the PS2 and PS3 have been the exact opposite of that initial hardware "advantage".

I think how Sony handled things back then certainly played a part. I just don't think that the current landscape of game genres was some master plan of theirs. They just managed to attract developers, then keep them.

Do not confuse blood and gore with maturity. That said, Nintendo's strict policy of censorship ended during the SNES era. Look back earlier too. Death Race? Morbid games have been around nearly from the beginning, so the suggestion that games need to grow up is a false one even in that narrow, immature reading of it--although I've never seen any other fanbase but Sony's get so hung up over content ratings.

No, the far worse suggestion is that games needed to grow up by becoming "more serious"--that the primary focus should be on realism, or on story, or on cinematic composition. There's not anything inherently wrong with attempting these things, but it's a misguided idea to suggest that this is what games are about, or that it necessarily should be.


I don't confuse gore with maturity. I simply point that out as part of the overall shift in public perception, and what was finding a market. Console games weren't necessarily kids stuff - not new, as you mentioned, but with graphical fidelity going up it was simply more apparent.

To me, it's less a "need" to grow up and more that as hardware specs and potential sales go up, so can ambition in design. It's perfectly understandable that the focus would shift on what the new platform can do that the old one couldn't, which in this case would mean games that were a shade more complex than before.
Or, in Nintendo's case, whether you need to use a stick, waggle, or swipe to control Mario. :mrgreen:
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Re: Why do we still play retro games?

Post by darthmunky »

AmericanMuffin wrote:
swiftzx wrote:Because they are fun and inexpensive.

That is true, but my theory is why they are fun, which is why we play them. I want to know your reasons behind why they're fun! Good answer though. :D

Because old games were made better and have better gameplay while modern games are all made the same (point and shoot).
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Re: Why do we still play retro games?

Post by Korpi »

I find it quite odd question, as it's not like they are from the stone age when human genetics and brain were probably quite different. Pac-Man isn't any less entertaining, it's just that there has become more (in some cases perhaps "better") options, which might make it seem boring now. Another thing is that the newest games are just superficially complex, they have a lot of audiovisual fluff and boring/non-challenging repetition, and game mechanics are actually simpler. Minecraft isn't really that simple, it's as simple as you make it out to be, being the sandboxy game it is. Seen those videos of someone making arithmetic logic units, or models of spaceships, for example? Accessibility is what you mean, I don't think that's synonymous with simplicity.

There's also the thing, that in all forms of design, there are golden ages, when creativity thrives and the creation itself is more valued, than such things as money or fame. Thoughtfully arranged music never gets old, good movies never age and finely crafted pench 100 years ago is still finely crafted pench. Sure, changes in gaming have happened very fast and golden ages come and go fast, but the "problem" of evolution in games is not in the software or hardware, they limitation is created by human brain, what we are able to enjoy. That's not really problem or limitation really, it's what sets the rules for design, and those rules have been met quite a while ago, now it's just about details and expanding gaming by audiovisual means. I think it's for everyone to decide themselves how important the audiovisual side is for gaming.
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Re: Why do we still play retro games?

Post by CD AGES »

Easy to pick up and play, lots of Fun and very cheap to purchase as oppose to current titles that go for 50 or 60 bucks. Oh! and Nostalgia lol!
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Re: Why do we still play retro games?

Post by d123456 »

no, it´s that new games suck for the most part at least.
I said it, don´t be angry. You can talk to my lawyer:
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Re: Why do we still play retro games?

Post by Damm64 »

As a child i could never have a N64 or a SNES or a gamecube or a PS2... now with 19 i can almost pay those :lol:

And they are simple and fun.
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