RPGs for the all growed ups!

[Flak Beard]

If you really want a complex and "adult" (not XXX adult, you fools!) RPG you should actually avoid the Final Fantasy series altogether. While they try to deal with serious subjects the dialogue is usually cloying and annoying. Final Fantasy 6 (3) and 7 both feature characters who are near to stock stereotypes, and while there are mature story elements, the games usually devolve to the nonsensical. Because racing chocobos is so mature. Because the angst the characters feel is such a mature emotional response...

If you really want role-playing games that appeal to adult gamers you should probably stick to the niche RPGs that play fast and loose with genre conventions. Panzer Dragoon Saga is the best example I can think of this, but I've also heard very good things about Persona and Valkyrie Profile. I would stay away from Square. Fun, yes, but also VERY genre and, at the core, very immature.

I would have to disagree, it really just depends on what you mean by mature. Sometimes the Final Fantasy games feel nonsensical, but his has to do with Japanese culture. Japanese people tend not discuss certain things like we do openly, such as existentialism or the theory of perceptive reality. This is why you find it in their works of art. It's an outlet for this kind of thinking, and often comes across as being convoluted.

Final Fantasy VI definitely falls into the mature category in my book and the characters are far from being stereotypical. In fact, FFVI has one the best character webs in a JRPG especially for when it was made. I tend to find a lot of the niche JRPGs to be far more silly myself. A lot of them have too many things derived from your average anime.

And who cares if racing chocobos is mature or not? That's just a side diversion anyway.

[Mozgus]

Nah I agree that Final Fantasy has never been "mature". Hell, it never will be either. It's always been for the younger crowd. You don't need gore and cursing to make a mature RPG. I'm not saying that. I don't necessarily think Panzer Dragoon Saga is any more mature than the FF series.

I guess the biggest cling to maturity that an RPG could possibly have in my eyes is the story. If the story actually perks my interest, and has me second-guessing events and analyzing everything, then I feel like that is a mature game. I love PDSaga and FF7, and I'll even say they have good stories, but they aren't MATURE stories. As much as I love them, I don't even consider Parasite Eve 1 and 2 to be very mature. Maybe a little. Again, not due to the gore, or guns, or even the modern day new york setting, but because the story just didn't impress me on a mature level. When I think about it, the Japanese just don't seem to write any mature stories for games. They always seem to aim for the 12-17 year olds.

The irony in my experience has been that whenever I feel like a game really is mature, the gameplay suffers. Mature RPGs often feel like work, and the story alone is not enough to hold me. I'm thinking of a lot of PC RPGs right now like Fallout 1 and 2.

[PH]

Good thread... I'd say go with Xenogears for PS1.

[JoeOsborn]

I think you can't ignore the Suikoden series, especially Suikoden 2 on the PSX (if you can find it) and Suikoden 5 on the PS2 (much easier to find, but maybe not as good). I haven't played the others, so I can't vouch for them, but both of those have deep, intricate plots of politics, war, romance, and revolution, with strong underlying themes. While they are a completionist's nightmare(108 characters to figure out how to recruit, and if you get them all you get bonus goodies! Oh, and of course you can miss some...), the maturity of the storytelling and the strategies that underscore the actions of the major characters make them all-time favorites of mine.

[Intangir]

Note: Potential Suikoden 2 story spoilers ahead.

I'd agree with that. Suikoden 2 did have a number of mature situations and left some questions to the player afterward--from the Machiavellian quandaries of morality, to the tragedies of warfare epitomized by Luca Blight (himself a tragic character). Luca and Neclord aside, there really wasn't much simply black or white characters in Suikoden 2, which really made the warring in the last stretch of the game feel really gray and contrite as it was now being perpetuated by some fatalistic trapping instead of putting an end to an unequivocally evil antagonist.

The bad thing (for me, anyway) is that all that mature and interesting storytelling is often obscured and bogged-down by campy dialog and juvenile sequences or side-quests. Yet despite that, I still rank Suikoden 2 as one of my favorite console RPGs much for the aforementioned reasons, and I tend to like games with that kind of dubious nature to it. That's also why I loved Terranigma.

One of these days I'll get a PS2/PS3 and finally continue the Suikoden series.

[marurun]

I would actually counter un-recommend Xenogears as far as maturity goes. Xenogears is one of those games that uses complex and deep-sounding plotting to impress people but is really just illusory in depth. It's like Neon Genesis Evangelion that way. You make enough references to religion and big events and complexity and people think it's inherently good.

There's a form of this in the world of written and verbal communication as well: people who use big words to impress even when they are completely unnecessary to convey meaning.

IMO, Xenogears uses an attractive sheen to make people think there's real depth, but there really isn't. It's just another game. Truly mature players will see through the sheen but may enjoy it nonetheless.

[Mozgus]

I would actually counter un-recommend Xenogears as far as maturity goes. Xenogears is one of those games that uses complex and deep-sounding plotting to impress people but is really just illusory in depth. It's like Neon Genesis Evangelion that way. You make enough references to religion and big events and complexity and people think it's inherently good.

There's a form of this in the world of written and verbal communication as well: people who use big words to impress even when they are completely unnecessary to convey meaning.

IMO, Xenogears uses an attractive sheen to make people think there's real depth, but there really isn't. It's just another game. Truly mature players will see through the sheen but may enjoy it nonetheless.

Very true.

[ott0bot]

I think Dragon Force is fairly grown up. Heck a kid probably couldn't even navigate the menu, and get bored and not even make it too the awesome battles. The story is kinda Shakespearian with all the plotting against each other and back stabbing.

A note about Xenogears. I think even though it does mention religion and all that for effect, it does have a solid plot, dialoge heavy as it is. And I replayed it about two years ago, it didn't really feel like it was made for kids. More like teens, with all the macabre flash backs and psycho babble. I still think its one of the best square RPG's.

Tales of the Abyss had it's annoying teenage moments but all in all it appealed towards older teens, which it seems thats about the best you can hope for. They have more of a disposible income, and face it, most japanese games are based toward perverted adults who want to act like teenagers. Persona 3 for example and the next mention.....

Isn't Ar Tonellico a dating sim/rpg? I've heard it's pretty adult with the having to conquer womens minds and "get it on" in order to unlock their abilities. I hope "adult" does mean it has to being a perv.

[Randy_Marsh]

Okay here is a question with real Racketboy potential.

I admit here and now, I missed most of console gaming's bright spots. I guess I really didn't care, my passion at the time was my computer. For me, my PC over shadowed anything on console and the result is that I missed out on just about everything that was pivotal in gaming history.

I have been on a mission of rediscovery. I have started my journey in the 32 bit era, and have since begun to move backwards. What I am finding is that there is a gigantic mass of incredible RPGs that I have never even touched. Recently, I have begun to change all that.

The first two console RPGs that I started playing seriously were Chrono Trigger and Panzer Dragoon Saga (not a bad start, right?) both are amazing and everything everyone ever said they were.

Yet as I get into the RPGs of yore, I learn that really nothing has changed all too much. Sure they gained that whole third dimension, but gameplay is essentially the same, and to their detriment, some of the stories that were once fresh have now become cliche and predictable.

My question is this: Which of the thousands of RPGs out there have a plot worth telling? If graphics were no longer a category for evaluation, which would stand out from the rest? To extend the question even further, which of these sophisticated story telling games deals with the most "adult" content, meaning real world issues and themes?

not at all, you just had a different focus. many of teh posters here have no idea about some of the awesome PC experiences you or i have had. for example: how would you feel if you never played fallout 1 and 2? personally, i'd feel dead inside:)

[Randy_Marsh]

I would actually counter un-recommend Xenogears as far as maturity goes. Xenogears is one of those games that uses complex and deep-sounding plotting to impress people but is really just illusory in depth. It's like Neon Genesis Evangelion that way. You make enough references to religion and big events and complexity and people think it's inherently good.

There's a form of this in the world of written and verbal communication as well: people who use big words to impress even when they are completely unnecessary to convey meaning.

IMO, Xenogears uses an attractive sheen to make people think there's real depth, but there really isn't. It's just another game. Truly mature players will see through the sheen but may enjoy it nonetheless.

lolz you just poant that game.