When did IP become so worthless to people?

[Erik_Twice]

I think it's worth mentioning that William Shakespeare did not enjoy any legal IP protection.

He didn't enjoy trains and vaccines either.

[Hatta]

I'm not saying you're wrong about how things might turn out - but in an IP free society, prepare to be really bored / disappointed with whatever entertainment gets turned out. If people can't expect to profit from their work, they have zilch incentive to create.

Don't be so pessimistic. Look at how much free culture we already have, and we're just getting used to the idea. Profit isn't the only reason people create, in fact it's not a reason people create at all. If that was all they wanted they'd be bankers, not artists. Profit is a means, not an end. We can find much more sensible ways to provide those means.

As for being bored or disappointed with entertainment in an IP free future, have you taken a look around? Our profit driven, committee designed, corporate culture is incredibly boring and disappointing. I will gladly take Nethack over Modern Warfare. I will gladly take Linux over Windows. I will gladly take the Live Music Archive over anything on the radio. I will gladly take the PBS NewsHour and Democracy Now! over any broadcast news. I will gladly take Khan Academy over anything on Discover or TLC.

Smaller budgets in the future will lead to artists taking more risks. If they don't have to please millions of people to make their money back, they will take more chances. Instead of shooting for the lowest common denominator, they will aim to please their fans. This is better for artists and fans.

[MrPopo]

Man this is simple.

1) Ideas require work. Specially very developed ideas like music, books or games.

2) If you think I should pay you those 10 hours you worked at the mine, then you should accept that you have to pay me for my music if you want to enjoy it.


Owning your own work is the most basic right a worker can have, no matter if you are a medic or an engineer, work is work. YOUR work.


Inazuma talks about a "fair price". Who are you to ask me for fairness? It's MY work, I decide how much it's worth and what I want to do with it. What is fair but letting me own my own work?

If I spent my team writting Naruto and I wanted to charge 1.000.000$ , it's my choice because it would be my work! You are not entitled to it for less than what I want to ask because you have no choice on the matter, you don't decide how much my work is worth anymore than I don't force you to work at minimun wage.

Not that pirates pay artists the minimun wage.


But pricing doesn't even enter into account. I have a blog, it's free to read, I don't charge anything. But it's mine, and I own every single word included there. But many (not talking about anyone in particular) would argue that I don't have any right to shoot down that fucking bot who copied one of my articles.

Your idea is in general sound, the problem is enforcement. To use your example, if you want me to work in the mine you play me $10/hour. If you don't pay me I stop working in the mine until you do so. Or let's say you've created a consumer good. You want to charge me $5 for your handmade picture frame. You can easily enforce that. If I don't give you the money you don't give it to me. And if I physically steal it you can easily determine that it is missing and take legal action. The realm of digital goods is much more difficult to enforce. Sure, you can spend a vast amount of time and money going after those who do this sort of thing, or you can accept that the world is different now and adapt your business model to compensate.

[DinnerX]

Fashions don't get ripped off. Trends get copied. Totally different. Fashion companies jealously guard their trademarks and designs from counterfeiters because their name, their style, their intellectual property - these are the things that make a fashion label stand out to the consumer. This is why you have that stereotype of fashion conscious women who can pick out particular brands from across a room.

And intellectual properties are sure as shit a cornerstone of capitalism. If you disagree, I would ask you to please point out to me any time in our modern capitalist history that people did not fight over their intellectual property or make an effort so assert their ownership? Hell, I can think of examples of intellectual property being protected by governments as far back as the Victorian era. Even further if you want to treat religious institutions as forms of government.

I mean, why do you think we call it Pasteurizing milk instead of the 'boil it, drink it' method? You think it's any mistake that Great Expectations is universally recognized as a Dickens novel? Or that band-aids are made by a company called 'band aid'? We wear Levi's - that's not just a clever name for dyed canvas that some dude came up with.

The apple logo - instantly identifiable, even if you hate Macs. Where else do you see that logo? The SEGA chime from your childhood. Definitely didn't make it to any SNES titles. The fact that people refer to the King James Bible as specifically 'The King James' Bible and not just 'The British version'?

The colony of Virginia, chartered to the Virginia trading company. The East Indie Tea Company - the absolute definition of Capitalism - you think they didn't make sure people knew which tea blends were theirs and which weren't?

It's all intellectual property - people come up with ideas that catch on and there are laws in place to protect their ownership over those ideas. Hell, why do you think the United States was known as the land of opportunity? Because it was started by capitalists who wanted individuals to be able to own their work and profit from it instead of watching a corrupt government take it from them.

But hey, try putting yourself into the shoes of someone who has created something with some kind of economic viability. It's easy to clamor for a world with no IP protection when you haven't made anything yourself.

Most, if not all of, what you are talking about here is trademark related. A little trademark law is a good thing in my opinion. At its core trademark law is not about protecting the companies. It's about making sure consumers know they are getting a legitimate item.

I should have been clearer in my comment on fashion. Trends were what I was trying to talk about. Aspects of designs, and sometimes basically whole designs are copied, edited, and recopied. All without any permissions needed. If a design could be copyrighted this would not be legal.

Copyrights, patents, and trademarks have been around for years in various forms like you say. No I can't really think of a modern country that doesn't have them. However, something is not a cornerstone because it is old or because it is widespread. Physical money is very old, but it is not a cornerstone of capitalism. Government regulations are widespread but they are not a cornerstone of capitalism.

As for 'not grouping definitions of IP' together...well, that makes it even harder to have a discussion, doesn't it? Arbitrary definitions are so deliberate, aren't they? I am using the strict definition of the acronym 'Intellectual Property' to include anything distinctive that a person can create and that laws or customs exist to prevent the copying / theft of.

Trademarks, patents, and copyright laws are all very different. They protect different things. They also have different protections. They have different purposes and ideas behind them. We can't discuss them as though they are all the same thing very well.

I think I made a pretty valid suggestion. Every situation has at least two sides. I was simply asking you put yourself in the position of someone who might be expecting income from their work but is instead unable to derive any profit, no matter how popular or well accepted their product might be. You don't think that would be frustrating?

People won't be unable to derive any profit. There is almost always some benefit to having the official version of something. When you download something you don't get manuals, posters, other inserts, a cd, a box, or that satisfaction of having something legitimate.

I do enjoy friendly debates like this.