RPGs for the all growed ups!

[marurun]

Valkyrie Profile was made by pre-Squenix Enix, not by Square. Also, while Vagrant Story seems to have some interesting story elements, I find the game has too much going on to be any fun (make items, chain obscure combos!). That and the levels don't seem to fit into anything. It's like you're just wandering around in random buildings and dungeons. I just couldn't get very far into that game. I can't think of a single pre-Squenix Square RPG that wasn't beaten easily by something some other company made at the same game.

If you really want a complex and "adult" (not XXX adult, you fools!) RPG you should actually avoid the Final Fantasy series altogether. While they try to deal with serious subjects the dialogue is usually cloying and annoying. Final Fantasy 6 (3) and 7 both feature characters who are near to stock stereotypes, and while there are mature story elements, the games usually devolve to the nonsensical. Because racing chocobos is so mature. Because the angst the characters feel is such a mature emotional response...

If you really want role-playing games that appeal to adult gamers you should probably stick to the niche RPGs that play fast and loose with genre conventions. Panzer Dragoon Saga is the best example I can think of this, but I've also heard very good things about Persona and Valkyrie Profile. I would stay away from Square. Fun, yes, but also VERY genre and, at the core, very immature.

Valkyrie Profile was made by Square.

Both Parasite Eves and Vargrant Story don't really fall into the category you talk about either.

[marurun]

While the Thief games, System Shock 2, and Deus Ex are all great games and have RPG elements, they are really more FPS than anything else, so this isn't really the right category for them.

I'm trying to play Anachronox right now, and while there are lots of really neat elements, there are also some frustrating annoyances, like waiting for so many damn elevators and the whole 3D cursor thing. I kinda wish the pointer was 2D and just lit up when something was actionable. That and combat, so far at least, can be a bit of a chore.

As for "mature" RPGs... I don't think it's about finding RPGs that are only for adults or anything. I think it's about finding RPGs that take their subject material seriously and are simply accessible by adults, in addition to younger players, without feeling condescending. Panzer Dragoon Saga is the best example of this I can thing of on consoles. On PC Arcanum is BEAUTIFUL. So damn much fun! Especially nice for Fallout fans. Further good RPGs are the Golden Sun series on GBA. While the characters are younger, the game isn't as melodramatic as Square fare and is much more accessible as a result. Phantasy Star IV on Genesis also kicks ass, as does Phantasy Star 2 if you can handle the challenge. The Shining games by Sega, by and large, manage the task alright as well.

[Scooter]

I found Parasite Eve and Parasite Eve II pretty darn good and entertaining. I don't know if the concepts within are exclusively adult oriented, but the story is a great sci-fi theme and has many layers. The game has some decent plot twists. It is frustratingly difficult at some points.

While it's not an RPG, I feel Heart of the Alien (Sega CD) has a fantastic storyline better than the majority of RPGs out there. Rise of the Dragon is another "not quite RPG" that has a good adult oriented storyline.

[marurun]

I detect that you have a love of adventure games. No, they aren't RPGs. They are their own, unique genre. But they can be great games. We don't really have a forum category here where they fit in, though, do we...

[Intangir]

I'm trying to play Anachronox right now, and while there are lots of really neat elements, there are also some frustrating annoyances, like waiting for so many damn elevators

This is where that "fast-forward" button (implemented in, I believe, the second patch) comes in brilliantly.

As for the topic itself, I'm still going with my original recommendation: Planescape: Torment. Why the thread didn't just lock itself shut and award me 1000 points after I said it, I do not know.

Now that you mention it, Anachronox (which, along with Thief, Deus Ex, System Shock, etc, I originally only brought up to show the bias of the forum) is somewhat mature in some respects. For starters the protagonists aren't all children with childish notions. They all have great personality without being cookie-cutter representations. Sure the game does follow some of the conventions of JRPGs, but it does manage to avoid some of the annoyances (and then a lot are ameliorated by the fast-forward). The game itself just has a lot of character and for this I remember a great and many scenes and situations from the game really well even today.

And another mature RPG came out in the time since I last posted in this thread called The Witcher, which I'd also recommend (best RPG I played in 2007).

[Vestrwald]

I would suggest hitting the bookstore before going to gamestore if you want a good story. I hear that John Buchan is quite good.

As for games, it depends on what you want. If you want simple and brilliant, ICO would be a good choice, though that is more action/adventure/puzzle. As for something more complex, Chrono Trigger is the best your going to get there, I'm a afraid.

I would suggest Okami (for the PS2 and, soon, the Wii) and Odion Sphere (just the PS2), though. Perhaps not the greatest games in the world, they are both enjoyable for what they are. The Super Paper Mario series (Ninteno 64 and Gamecube for the RPGs, Wii for the platformer) is also worth a look. Avoid Grandia (at least the second one) if you don't want to die from cliché poisoning.

Also, I'm new and pleased to meet all of you folks.

[marurun]

Welcome to the board. And I agree, books are great for story. But games do have some interesting tricks for melding story and interaction.

As for something more complex, Chrono Trigger is the best your going to get there, I'm a afraid.

This, however, I disagree with, greatly. While CT is well-loved, there's only so much story you can pack into a non-speaking character, in part because they have no place in the world. There is little more important for a central protagonist than understanding their motives and thoughts through not just their actions but their speech. If Chrono was a mute it would be OK, except that you can't see any subtleties of expression due to the graphical limitations of the platform. I think there's a tendency for people to think that games that are fun are necessarily good, or that RPGs they enjoy also have good story, and other such things. Alas, I am not in this majority.

In the console space I stand by Panzer Dragoon Saga as the pinnacle of what's out there, with Grandia a heart-warming runner up (and I'm not talking about SOA's US translation), and in the PC space, though my experience is limited, Arcanum is the best I've come across personally.

[aaron]

man i actually LIKE cliche rpg elements. i love grandia, xenosaga, and final fantasy 6-10. i know what i'm getting into, though so i guess it's not like i'm looking for amazing mature elements in my games, i just like to see the stories develop, cheesy as they may be.

then again my favorite movies are animated children's movies so...

[marurun]

Certainly nothing wrong with knowing what you like and going after it :)

[Vestrwald]

This, however, I disagree with, greatly. While CT is well-loved, there's only so much story you can pack into a non-speaking character, in part because they have no place in the world. There is little more important for a central protagonist than understanding their motives and thoughts through not just their actions but their speech.

I was actually talking about the complexity of the story. Not many games have you going through several times periods, trying to stop the destruction of the world, which actually has no bearing on the heroes. However, you have brought up an interesting point and I would actually like to semi-challenge it, if I may be so bold.

Crono is unimportant to the game, no matter how you look at it. Granted, he dies and the characters are sad, but they can continue without him. Crono is simply there to provide a connection between us and the characters, something for us to role-play as. Therefore, he is unimportant and I think we should just ignore him when talking about the characters, because his purpose was not to be a character, but to be a link. I would call Marle and Luca the central protagonists, because the story has to happen to them. Without them, there is no story and no game. Crono, and us, are just along for the ride, following Marle and Luca as they rove through time on a mad quest to save the world from something that is no threat to them.

I think there's a tendency for people to think that games that are fun are necessarily good, or that RPGs they enjoy also have good story, and other such things. Alas, I am not in this majority.

I agree with you all the way on that. You can like a game inspite of its story. Grandia II had a pretty neat battle system which I enjoyed, despite the rather bland story (though the love triangle was interesting for a while). Okami is a great game, but the story doesn't inspire much until the near end, when you are in the north. I think most people are addicted to nostalgia and are afraid to actually look at the game in comparison to another. And really, no game is going to get a better story or hero than Math Muncher for the old Macs.