PC Gaming Is Dying

[Flake]

You might not be stealing, but you are still a thief. You are still getting something for nothing, and at the expensive of those that made the product.

I always knew I liked this guy for more than just his awesome avatar.

[GSZX1337]

You might not be stealing, but you are still a thief.

Whaaa?

thief - a person who steals, especially secretly or without open force; one guilty of theft or larceny.

[the7k]

You might not be stealing, but you are still a thief.

Whaaa?

thief - a person who steals, especially secretly or without open force; one guilty of theft or larceny.

Mindset of a thief: "Hmm... I want that, but I don't want to pay for it." *Yoink!*
Mindset of a pirate: "Hmm... I want that, but I don't want to pay for it." *Torrent!*
Mindset of a decent person: "Hmm... I want that, but I don't want to pay for it. I guess I'll have to either save up my money or wait for a price drop." *You Win!*

[Limewater]

Getting upset at someone even though they did nothing, doesn't count.

But what about getting upset at someone because they did something?

@Limewater
Just to make sure, your main point is that copyright infringement is wrong, no matter what, correct?

Actually, no. My primary point is that none of us are really qualified to judge whether or not we are harming others. We all have narrow views. I hurt other people all the time. Sometimes it is intentional. Sometimes it is accidental. Sometimes I become aware of it after the fact. I am sure that plenty of times I have hurt people and never, ever known that I've done it. There have also been times that I have done some pretty horrible stuff, but managed to not hurt anyone, as far as I know.

You claim that some instances of piracy are OK, as long as you aren't costing the developer profits. However, many of those developers are upset that their rights and intellectual property are violated by pirates. It's easy to say, "Oh, well these people getting upset are unjustified; I'm not costing them money." However, I'm not really the person to say whether or not I am causing someone else pain, or whether their pain is justified. For example, some people aren't bothered by loud noises, while I have rather sensitive ears. The fact that loud noise doesn't bother someone else does not mean that the pain that I experience when subjected to loud noise is not real.

I am not qualified to say when I am hurting someone else. I never have the full picture. Actions often have consequences that we don't foresee, and may never see, and we always have incomplete information when we choose to do something.

[Inazuma]

Getting upset at someone even though they did nothing, doesn't count.

But what about getting upset at someone because they did something?

@Limewater
Just to make sure, your main point is that copyright infringement is wrong, no matter what, correct?

Actually, no. My primary point is that none of us are really qualified to judge whether or not we are harming others. We all have narrow views. I hurt other people all the time. Sometimes it is intentional. Sometimes it is accidental. Sometimes I become aware of it after the fact. I am sure that plenty of times I have hurt people and never, ever known that I've done it. There have also been times that I have done some pretty horrible stuff, but managed to not hurt anyone, as far as I know.

You claim that some instances of piracy are OK, as long as you aren't costing the developer profits. However, many of those developers are upset that their rights and intellectual property are violated by pirates. It's easy to say, "Oh, well these people getting upset are unjustified; I'm not costing them money." However, I'm not really the person to say whether or not I am causing someone else pain, or whether their pain is justified. For example, some people aren't bothered by loud noises, while I have rather sensitive ears. The fact that loud noise doesn't bother someone else does not mean that the pain that I experience when subjected to loud noise is not real.

I am not qualified to say when I am hurting someone else. I never have the full picture. Actions often have consequences that we don't foresee, and may never see, and we always have incomplete information when we choose to do something.

I'm sick of arguing with you, if you can even call it that.

I will continue to do what I always do, and that is support the companies and products I feel are worth supporting, and not buy the products I do not want to support. I feel that I am a pretty good judge of what is actually good and bad. I try to base my decisions on truth and reality, not on laws.

If a good company makes a good product and sells it at a good price, I will always buy it instead of pirate it. Of course, what constitutes "good" is up to me to decide. If it's from a horrible company such as the RIAA, I will do everything possible to never give them money, no matter what. Companies that sue and ruin the lives of people for downloading a few songs (right or wrong) is just outrageous and I completely refuse to support it.

I have a boycott list and I do my best to stick to it. I also hate things such as DRM, and games that are designed to be temporary in order to keep selling us the same game every console generation. I like to own and have control over the things I buy. I hate lies, scams, bullshit, and stuff that erodes our freedoms. I regularly donate money to organizations that fight to improve things. I know I'm only one person, but it means a hell of a lot to me to make the best decisions.

OK, that's enough. I'm getting too worked up over this shit. You are a very annoying person to talk to, Limewater.

[Limewater]

I'm sick of arguing with you, if you can even call it that.

I will continue to do what I always do, and that is support the companies and products I feel are worth supporting, and not buy the products I do not want to support. I feel that I am a pretty good judge of what is actually good and bad. I try to base my decisions on truth and reality, not on laws.

If a good company makes a good product and sells it at a good price, I will always buy it instead of pirate it. Of course, what constitutes "good" is up to me to decide. If it's from a horrible company such as the RIAA, I will do everything possible to never give them money, no matter what. Companies that sue and ruin the lives of people for downloading a few songs (right or wrong) is just outrageous and I completely refuse to support it.

I have a boycott list and I do my best to stick to it. I also hate things such as DRM, and games that are designed to be temporary in order to keep selling us the same game every console generation. I like to own and have control over the things I buy. I hate lies, scams, bullshit, and stuff that erodes our freedoms. I regularly donate money to organizations that fight to improve things. I know I'm only one person, but it means a hell of a lot to me to make the best decisions.

OK, that's enough. I'm getting too worked up over this shit. You are a very annoying person to talk to, Limewater.

This is all well and good. I just don't see where any of it has much to do with a moral system based upon hurting or not hurting others. I'm not trying to upset you or get you worked up, though the response is rather ironic. You don't have to answer to me about what you believe it right or wrong or good and bad. I'm no moral authority. If you know right from wrong, you're way ahead of me.

I'm just arguing based upon the moral system you claim to use.

[YoshiEgg25]

[Ivo]

You might not be stealing, but you are still a thief.

Whaaa?

thief - a person who steals, especially secretly or without open force; one guilty of theft or larceny.

Mindset of a thief: "Hmm... I want that, but I don't want to pay for it." *Yoink!*
Mindset of a pirate: "Hmm... I want that, but I don't want to pay for it." *Torrent!*
Mindset of a decent person: "Hmm... I want that, but I don't want to pay for it. I guess I'll have to either save up my money or wait for a price drop." *You Win!*

I think it was already pretty clear where I stand on the "You do not steal, but you are still a thief" concept...

I don't know why it isn't sufficient (or better!) for some people to stick to statements that can't be easily argued away as incorrect, such as "You do not steal, but it is still wrong to pirate".

If you want to continue being incorrect in such a way you are just diluting your message. Some people make comments that it is ridiculous the extent that some pirates go to in order to justify or rationalize their actions - but some of the "righteous" people are doing much the same (and making it easy on the pirates) by using claims that are so easy to destroy. At least make the pirates "work" for their ridiculous excuses, I say!



Although I don't entirely agree with the "Mindsets" you propose, they have far more merit. I'd like to know what people feel about some scenarios of a possibly (in)decent person:

1. I think I want that but I'm not sure I want to pay for it (and the demo, if it exists, doesn't make the decision clear for me). I'll pirate it now - if I don't end up liking it I don't continue playing, do not pay for it. If I like it I pay for it in full.

2. I want that now but I don't want to pay for it now, I'll pirate it now and pay for it later (and actually pay for it at a reduced price later or full price if it doesn't drop).

3. I want that but I don't want to pay for it now. I'll pirate it later and only play it when it is off the commercial circuit.

Ivo.

[aaron]

the fact that piracy is even an option really affects a person's view on right and wrong. in the 90's this wasn't even something that was on anyone's radar but the people reeeeeeally involved in the hacking/piracy scene. it's just on such a much grander scale now.

i just don't really care, i buy stuff i wanna buy and i don't buy stuff i don't wanna buy. sorry bout 'cha, multi-million dollar companies.

[Frizz.Meister]

well as this has gone way off topic ill assume it will abide by Godwin's Law that, "As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

So the only question, who will do it first?