How would you feel about a really controversial game decisio

The Philosophy, Art, and Social Influence of games
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D.D.D.
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Re: How would you feel about a really controversial game decisio

Post by D.D.D. »

ZeroAX wrote:
GSZX1337 wrote: I'm kind of surprised no one has said this yet, but that rape scenario you mentioned sounds really crappy.

Choice 1) Get raped without a fight and feel bad about it.
Choice 2) Fight back, get my ass beat, then probably get raped anyway.

Sounds fun.
Don't you ever watch a movie that makes you think about life in a bad way, even though it is disturbing? I wouldn't call any drama "fun". They are thought provoking. Is it really that bad to ask the same of interactive entertainment?

Stop thinking of the medium as only "games". By that definition, how is GTA or any other game that takes murder lightly, better than my rape example? It's a really crappy scenario, where you kill a bunch of innocent people for "fun". (and on the rape example, after all those hentai games where women enjoy getting raped, don't you think men should be shown the more realistic side?)
Movies: Yeah but then again there is a reason why I've stopped with the dramatic or serious movies. (F'n Green Mile made me feel like crap for 3 days.) Life if difficult enough without adding more drama to it.

Games: Yeah GTA is a glorified mafia/murder sim but it's not very realistic at all. You're not involved with the characters in any significant way to make any "real" connection with them. It's not anything like that drowning boy situation or choice A/B - either way you get raped (not really a choice though). The level of connection is what makes the difference for me and the level of detail in characters. I've read many movie/game reviews where reviewers say they couldn't get attached to characters and couldn't care about anything they did (perhaps that's the acting ability but you get what I mean).

Hentai: yeahhhhh, lets not even open the map on that road. I don't have a particularly negative opinion on it but I certainly don't hold it in regard.

I think it's fine to have games of all kinds, I just won't be playing them for my own reasons. I think most people won't play them simply because primarily, they just wanna have empty-minded/mind-clearing fun. ;)
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Re: How would you feel about a really controversial game decisio

Post by ZeroAX »

D.D.D. wrote:

Movies: Yeah but then again there is a reason why I've stopped with the dramatic or serious movies. (F'n Green Mile made me feel like crap for 3 days.) Life if difficult enough without adding more drama to it.
I'm one of those people who like crying I guess :lol: .

But to tell the truth, my favorite drama movies, and well those drama movies that I like in general, are the ones which end on a positive note. It's like sending the message that yeah life is tough, but there are always better times ahead if you persevere.

One of my favorite examples of this is La vita è bella (Life is Beautiful http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0118799/ ). I just wish more games made me feel like that. That it was thanks to me, my choices, my actions, that the story had a good ending, even though it could have gone terribly wrong (meaning a very sad ending).
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Re: How would you feel about a really controversial game decisio

Post by GSZX1337 »

I didn't have anything to argue about in your post, but I wanted to talk about this:
ZeroAX wrote: Also, they didn't ban rape games, they just made a law that prohibits naming them rape games.
I didn't link to the Dtoid article because of the banning of rape games, I linked to it because it had a statistic about rapes crimes per capita.
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_r ... per-capita

I didn't know about the banning of the term "rape game", not that I really cared. :lol:
D.D.D. wrote:(F'n Green Mile made me feel like crap for 3 days.) Life if difficult enough without adding more drama to it.
I feel like that sometimes after I watch House.
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Re: How would you feel about a really controversial game decisio

Post by ZeroAX »

You know, I don't want to talk bad about Japan, but there's a reason many people call rape the unpunishable crime. If rapes don't get reported to the police, they don't really count. For example Sweden is the country with the most rapes committed in Europe, but that is mostly cause their women report every single form of abuse.
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Re: How would you feel about a really controversial game decisio

Post by D.D.D. »

ZeroAX wrote:You know, I don't want to talk bad about Japan, but there's a reason many people call rape the unpunishable crime. If rapes don't get reported to the police, they don't really count. For example Sweden is the country with the most rapes committed in Europe, but that is mostly cause their women report every single form of abuse.
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Re: How would you feel about a really controversial game decisio

Post by Original_Name »

First ZeroAX, let me just say that I really appreciate it when I see people seriously contemplate the potential for truly affective concepts and decisions in this medium.

There's alot of talk about escapism in this thread... I'm not sure if this rejection to experience art which is "depressing" comes from a thoroughly-contemplated personal philosophy or simply from a misunderstanding of the purpose of communicating ideas in this way. The idea is not simply to "remind" the player about negative things in the world, it is to provide them with A.) a more intricate understanding of a matter, or access to more nuanced perspectives of it, and/or B.) (characteristically potent in video games), an arena in which to dynamically explore one's personal perspective on the matter, and/or (as is commonly hoped for in art) C.) provide an ultimately constructive reason for which to have subjected the audience through any negative experiences brought forward in the piece.

This last point is pervasive in most stories we're familiar with... in Little Red Riding Hood, the protagonist is eaten specifically in order to increase the tension of young readers so that they can, in turn, experience the relief when she is saved by the Woodsman. Without that "trauma", there would be no relief to be had -- call it "reciprocity". Sometimes, we don't get relief, though. In The Boy Who Cried Wolf, in place of relief, we get a moral... it is meant to be constructive towards the audience's character, ultimately making the "depressing" story a positive experience when the moral is applied to one's own life. That is to say that those "depressing" elements aren't there just because the writer/audience likes depressing things, they're there because they ultimately lead to a good experience which is exponentially strengthened in meaning and effect by the bad experience... these bad experiences are "crucibles".

In video games, we have a feature which can really only be hinted at in other mediums... what the story (which we are integral in dynamically crafting as we play) has to say specifically about us. Video games, if we choose to treat them as such, are a revolution of the parable... they can offer that crucible which builds our tension, then see how we... that is YOU and ME, act when faced with the wolf, for better or for worse. Are you a good little child, or are you rotten? Are the lines so easy to draw as that? What if following your morals lands you in the belly of a wolf, and being bad preserves you? How does that make you reflect on your morals? You can't fully understand yourself or your morals until they're put to the test... it is a challenge above and beyond whether or not you can dodge that fireball or not, it challenges your entire orientation towards morality or "truth" as it were. Experiences with actual value.

The ultimate meaning of Rez (although they were too damn coy about stating it), was that there is no escapism. "She is still trapped inside the system," similarly, you played a video game to escape, but you never went anywhere... you had an experience like any other, except this one happened on a television screen. Life is a constantly building, growing experience, and you never escape from it... we have experiences which challenge us, and experiences which allow us to indulge in idleness. Idleness is necessary from time to time for the sake of rejuvenation, but should we always be so quick to escape challenge? To me, it is a better use of time to challenge myself on as many levels as possible and encourage the growth of my character whenever I am able rather than seek excessive idleness. Video games, although they have traditionally not been viewed this way, have the incredible dynamic, expressive potential to actively facilitate this sort of cognitive growth, even if the physical setting (leaning back in a chair in front of a television) is comfortable.

...but no, games like that, totally don't sell. :wink:

EDIT:

In case I came off as a bit condemning to people who only desire games/art in general for the purpose of fun and escapism, I only meant to explain that there's something more rewarding to these controversial/avant games than just some sort of masochistic thrill on the part of those who enjoy them, as the posts seemed to imply.
Last edited by Original_Name on Wed Feb 02, 2011 10:53 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How would you feel about a really controversial game decisio

Post by flamepanther »

"Video games," as such, face a dilemma when they try to stray too far from being fun and entertainment. When the point is no longer fun and amusement, the activity is no longer a game. The end result might be an outstanding and valuable work of interactive art, but it loses its identity as a game, and that creates problems for the work. As long as there's this idea that it's a game, there will necessarily be the perception that it should be fun.

As much as part of me wants to see that happen, I have to admit I wouldn't likely end up doing much to help such a movement succeed. If I have a choice between an interactive experience where I'm responsible for difficult moral choices, and one where I get to have fun and blow stuff up, guess which one I'm going to choose most of the time?
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Re: How would you feel about a really controversial game decisio

Post by cookie monster »

I understand that a game where you can make choices other than good or bad
choices but you can also explore the shades of grey and see what consiqunces there will be sounds intresting but why would anyone use rape as a example when trying to make a point on a game idea yes it will get attention but have you thought about how a victim would feel if they read all the post for this forum i hope no one here ever gets raped or knows someone that does cause it destroys there life :cry:
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Re: How would you feel about a really controversial game decisio

Post by J T »

cookie monster wrote:I understand that a game where you can make choices other than good or bad
choices but you can also explore the shades of grey and see what consiqunces there will be sounds intresting but why would anyone use rape as a example when trying to make a point on a game idea yes it will get attention but have you thought about how a victim would feel if they read all the post for this forum i hope no one here ever gets raped or knows someone that does cause it destroys there life :cry:
I sort of felt this way when I first read the post as well, but it is true that movies, books, and other media are able to deal with the issue of rape in a meaningful manner. It is possible that the issue could also be tackled in a videogame, or at least "interactive art" as flamepanther would prefer it be called. And perhaps that is the better term. Rape isn't really something to make a "game" of. When that has been done, it has usually been something tasteless like Rapelay or Custer's Revenge. The only game I can think of that dealt with rape even remotely tactfully was Phantasmagoria, and that was largely because it's a game that consists primarily of movie cut scenes. The rape scene didn't have interactivity. The scene also fit the central theme of the game, which was about being trapped in a horrible relationship. I don't think I would even want a rape scene to have interactivity, whether from the role of the predator or the victim. I'm imagining some horrible QTE scenario and I just can't see it working.

Honestly, as it stands now, I don't think anyone has made a video game that was artistically solid enough that it could effectively tackle a tough issue like rape and do so in as meaningful a manner as has been done in book or film, but I'm not going to say it's impossible.
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Re: How would you feel about a really controversial game decisio

Post by msimplay »

Hmm just saw this youtube vid and I think it's relevant to the topic and maybe what the original post of the thread was trying to say except more clear.

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