I want to talk about Sonic

[opethfan]

I think bottomless pits are a bigger problem on the DS games and GBA ones. The entire level design is:
Run, rail, run, run, rail rail rail, pit, rail, pit, run, rail, pit.
And it becomes pure luck. Cut the rails and the pits, and Sonic will be good again.

[Droid party]

One big issue I have with SA is the number of charachters in it. For fuck sake , why am I now playing as a giant fat purple cat.

[instant_classic]

i actually didnt mind the sonic adventure games, i dare say i found them mildly enjoyable. though it was those horrifically tedious treasure hunting missions with knuckles that were unbearable.

[ubelaffe]

For fuck sake , why am I now playing as a giant fat purple cat.

I'm pretty sure that would make a great forum signature...

[Shvalt]

They should get rid of those damn treasure hunting stages. I actually like sonic adventure 2: Battle, until i got stuck on one of those. I havent touched it in 2 years.

I agree, i borrowed Adventure 2: Battle from a friend a while ago.

Gave it back the next day because the treasure hunting stages were too frustrating!

[Droid party]

For fuck sake , why am I now playing as a giant fat purple cat.

I'm pretty sure that would make a great forum signature...

If you like it you can keep it.
But that was one of the last straws for me on that game.

[Gamerforlife]

I've always felt that the SA games on the Dreamcast were perfect, except for all that crap with the other characters. Sonic and Shadow were all those games needed. I haven't played any Sonic games since then so that should be kept in mind when reading this post. From what I've heard I haven't missed much.

I'd love to see a game designed completely like the SA games, but with only Sonic and Shadow. No hub areas. Just a linear experience like the 2-d games, but with room for exploration. The could include a stage select for every stage you finish too. They should keep some kind of ranking system in.

I want badass boss fights that are more complex than any we've seen before from Sonic games, with multiple phases. Maybe some larger than life machines that Sonic must navigate around while dodging attacks. Something like Shadow of the Colossus, but done Sonic style.

I am FIRMLY against seeing Sonic in 2-d again. It's been done MANY times. It's old, time to move on. Don't get me wrong, Sonic 1,2,3,Knuckles and CD are all timeless, but Sonic in 2-d has been done to death. However, I think it'd be fun to have 2-d unlockable levels in the same way they did the Quark vid-comics in Ratchet & Clank: Up Your Arsenal.

I want Sonic to have a visual facelift, maybe something kind of cel shaded. I'm thinking of games like Sly Cooper.

I want them to keep that lock on air attack from the SA games, but morph it into something similar to Shinobi's tate system. Pulling these off successfully would factor into your ranking. These would just add to that awesome sense of speed and keep the pace going even when you're not speeding through loop de loops, or bouncing back and forth between bumpers.

They should TOTALLY keep the pits in. It is a PLATFORM game, and properly done jumps is just part of the skill factor.

I think they could put in a very simple, easy to use trick system like Jet Set Radio Future(they already introduced rail grinding in Sonic Adventure 2)These would also factor into your stage ranking.

Of course, they should throw in a bunch of classic 2-d Sonic games as unlockables too.

In closing, Sonic is ABSOLUTELY about speed. It's what seperates it from ALL other platformers. The exploration gives it added depth, but a Sonic game needs to always keep the action moving at a fast pace. I think they actually need to speed things up just a tad, pushing up the challenge factor and skill requirement. They need to move away from the auto-pilot that happens a lot where you just stare at the screen while Sonic is speeding along. They need to find ways to keep players alert so that they have to always keep Sonic under control even when he's moving very quickly, like maybe putting objects in his path even when he's going through high speed loop de loops, through in some sudden gaps forcing player to keep alert and be ready to jump. Of course, I'm not sadistic and I think they need to keep some checkpoints in.

[Ivo]

(...)

I am FIRMLY against seeing Sonic in 2-d again. It's been done MANY times. It's old, time to move on. Don't get me wrong, Sonic 1,2,3,Knuckles and CD are all timeless, but Sonic in 2-d has been done to death. However, I think it'd be fun to have 2-d unlockable levels in the same way they did the Quark vid-comics in Ratchet & Clank: Up Your Arsenal.

(...)

They should TOTALLY keep the pits in. It is a PLATFORM game, and properly done jumps is just part of the skill factor.

I think you are really wrong in 2 assumptions. I don't think anyone actually disagrees 2d Sonic has been done "many" times. Nearly everyone here in the retro gaming forums, however, seems to think that it hasn't been done TOO MANY times. In my opinion there is a shortage of quality 2D Sonic games (I like the GBA games, but I have to admit they border on the average; after you played through the classics from the 16-bit era that is it, mostly). Castlevania as a series keeps getting 2d games and seems that it will continue that way, and AFAIK it is reasonably successful that way. Mario got "New Super Mario Bros" on the DS, and Super Paper Mario on the Wii, which I think count as two new, quality, 2D Mario games (I'm not sure about Super Paper Mario as I haven't played it myself).

Although, if they indeed keep making 3D Sonic games (which they will), some 2D sequences are more than welcomed (I loved the couple of 2D "secret" levels in the 3D Ecco game).

Finally about the pits - the complaint, IMO is not about the skill requirement, but that the pits are random - you die more due to so-called "cheapness" of the game, and not due to lack of skill. The level design in GBA games is somewhat lacking in this respect, from my experiences with them (I haven't played the third one yet). You need to forcefully die until you memorize where the "traps" are, unless you are progressing very carefully - while everything else in game pushes you to go fast (in many cases you need to pick up speed to overcome an obstacle). It's a catch 22, and it certainly is bad level design. I agree that skill should be required, that's not the point I'm making.

[Gamerforlife]

(...)

I am FIRMLY against seeing Sonic in 2-d again. It's been done MANY times. It's old, time to move on. Don't get me wrong, Sonic 1,2,3,Knuckles and CD are all timeless, but Sonic in 2-d has been done to death. However, I think it'd be fun to have 2-d unlockable levels in the same way they did the Quark vid-comics in Ratchet & Clank: Up Your Arsenal.

(...)

They should TOTALLY keep the pits in. It is a PLATFORM game, and properly done jumps is just part of the skill factor.

I think you are really wrong in 2 assumptions. I don't think anyone actually disagrees 2d Sonic has been done "many" times. Nearly everyone here in the retro gaming forums, however, seems to think that it hasn't been done TOO MANY times. In my opinion there is a shortage of quality 2D Sonic games (I like the GBA games, but I have to admit they border on the average; after you played through the classics from the 16-bit era that is it, mostly). Castlevania as a series keeps getting 2d games and seems that it will continue that way, and AFAIK it is reasonably successful that way. Mario got "New Super Mario Bros" on the DS, and Super Paper Mario on the Wii, which I think count as two new, quality, 2D Mario games (I'm not sure about Super Paper Mario as I haven't played it myself).

Although, if they indeed keep making 3D Sonic games (which they will), some 2D sequences are more than welcomed (I loved the couple of 2D "secret" levels in the 3D Ecco game).

Finally about the pits - the complaint, IMO is not about the skill requirement, but that the pits are random - you die more due to so-called "cheapness" of the game, and not due to lack of skill. The level design in GBA games is somewhat lacking in this respect, from my experiences with them (I haven't played the third one yet). You need to forcefully die until you memorize where the "traps" are, unless you are progressing very carefully - while everything else in game pushes you to go fast (in many cases you need to pick up speed to overcome an obstacle). It's a catch 22, and it certainly is bad level design. I agree that skill should be required, that's not the point I'm making.

Yeah, I know they keep making 2-d Castlevania games, and I stopped caring. They're just recycling Symphony of the Night over and over and over. That game was perfection. They can't improve on it, so why not just keep trying to bring the series to 3-d. Lament of Innocense wasn't all that bad. They need to build on that.

I love 2-d, but I like seeing new things done with it, like Viewtiful Joe. We're seeing classics stay in their 2-d "comfort zone" even after they've already reached their peak in that style of gameplay. Look what happens when a 2-d series successfully makes the transition to 3-d. Shinobi on the PS 2 is one of the most badass games I've ever played. Sonic has plenty to offer as a 3-d experience. If I want Sonic in 2-d I can replay the 16-bit classics. Those games are awesome and they will always be fun to play, but they PERFECTED the formula. We don't NEED any more 2-d Sonic games. There is absolutely no shortage of quality 2-d Sonic games. The 16-bit entries gave us all the 2-d Sonic goodness we needed. All further 2-d Sonic games are redundant. They'll just continue to be irrelevant. What made Sonic so great in the first place was that it was a bold step forward, something that hadn't been done before. Now we want it to stay stagnant by refusing to move forward?

About the pits, I'm just going to agree with you since I haven't actually played the portable Sonic games. What I've seen of them never looked impressive. They seem to just be re-inventing the wheel over and over again.

[opethfan]

By that same definition, video games are useless since they serve no useful purpose, other than making us happy. Which, coincidentally, is what 2D Sonics do